It's hard to have a "serious" conversation with our Muslim neighbors about Islam because often you will only be told the standard "Islam is peace" response and get push back if you go any deeper. While I believe we have a serious fight against Islamism ahead of us, I am encouraged by a number of brave Muslims and others who work tirelessly to help us realize that Islamic supremacy is all part of the "War on Terror".
As luck would have it in the fall of 2008, I got a chance to have my first chat with a Tulsa Muslim. It began in the strangest of places - the comments posted following an October 2nd article in the Tulsa World about the Islamic Society of Tulsa's new Imam who, for some reason, had been kept under wraps for over a year. But to be fair, he moved here from Egypt and probably needed some time to get settled in his new home. Proud Muslim is a freshman in college and probably a young man because he said he studied calculus and physics, but I could be wrong and he is a she. But for purposes of simplicity I will refer to Proud Muslim as he. He said he is part Turkish but mostly Egyptian. He was born in America and has relatives living in Egypt and said his parents came from Egypt.
The first comment made was troubled by the SLANTED spin the World called reporting. A Christian pastor wrote he had no problem with Ramadan and the article represented an expression of our American freedom. Basil wrote many Muslims fail to acknowledge, hopefully not with deceitful motives, is that terrorism does exist within Islam, even if they say it's not part of their interpretation of the teachings of Mohammed. Maggie said she personally admire those in the Islamic community who follow the discipline of Ramadan.
After a few more comments Proud Muslim joined in and said; "As a Muslim, I am shocked by some of these comments. Ramadan is all about controlling your desires, practicing discipline and self control, and going through what those less fortunate than yourself have to go through and accused Basil of spouting hate, without evidence to back it up.
Se here we go. From time to time, I have also added comments from other articles, if I felt it added to the overall conversation here.
Part one, which covers the period October 2008 to February 2009, is below. I added links where appropriate and time has allowed:
Proud Muslim's avitar:
Basil replied:"Clearly your goodness of heart prevents you from being able to see or accept the truth about those things done in the name of Mohammed and his religion, which were in fact vile murderous acts..."
Proud Muslim 10/2/2008 10:29:54 AM
Basil, for someone who spouts so much hate, you sure have little evidence to back it up.
#1
"led Mohammed to slaughter 600-900 Jews in Medina"
FALSE: Mohammed chose Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, who was a Jew who converted to Islam, to judge the tribe Banu Qurayza, with their agreement, for conspiring with the Meccans, expecting Sa'd ibn Mua'dh to give them mercy. It was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh who chose to behead the 600-900 Jewish men.
#2
"Muslims have used genocide (Armenian-Greek)"
TRUE & FALSE: The Ottoman Empire did kill 1 to 1.5 million Armenians, but that can hardly be justified with Islam. The Quran openly denounces racism and ethnic cleansing.
#3
"Unfair taxes on dhimmi"
FALSE: The tax was 2.5% of the entire wealth, paid once a year, and was only applied to men who could afford to pay. Women, children, elderly, and the poor were exempt.
#4
"terrorism to preserve themselves"
FALSE: About 1/5 of the world's population is Muslim, and while conversion rates are unclear, at least thousands of people convert every year.
Proud Muslim 10/2/2008 1:13:47 PM
Again Basil, you fail to provide facts. You instead spew your hate, or as you put it, "criticism", and give us your biased, hateful opinions.
Bluebird: Like I said, that can hardly be justified with Islam. The Ottomans did commit the crime, I'm not denying it. But that's just it. The Ottomans, not Islam, committed the crime. You want remorse? You want confession? Go to the Ottoman Empire and ask for it, because Islam is not to blame.
As far as racism goes: God says in the Quran: {Stand out firmly for God as bearers of witness with Justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearest to piety } (Al-Ma'idah 5:8). The Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
O people remember that your Lord is one. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab, also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and virtuous deeds. (Al-Baihaqi)
PS. Your great grandfathers were from Turkey? Two of my great grandfathers were from Turkey too! We might be cousins in more than one way! :)
Bluebird, I will do that. But remember, that whatever the Ottomans did to the Greeks, Islam is not to blame.
Basil, I believe nss wanted a FAIR BOOK, not a biased website/video. And you still haven't come up with the "clear evil" in Islam. nss, I suggest the Quran, the basic, undisputed foundation of Islam. Other than that, try looking it up in encyclopedias and other research sources. I advise not looking online, as any biased person can post what he thinks online.
Learning about another religion, no matter what you believe, through neutral sources is always a good idea, and I applaud your efforts.
zTruth 10/12/2008 5:20:00 PM
There are many credible sources on the Internet, for goodness sakes. To simply say not to believe the Internet overlooks the fact that most people can distinguish between truth and fiction with relative ease especially websites that provide prove sources that are credible. There is also an Islamic website that has been certified as providing accurate information about Islam by two Middle East book publishers of the Quran and Hadiths.
I do take issue with the Imam's statement that you can change your religion easily in Egypt.
From the U.S. State Department 2007 report on religious freedom in Egypt:
The Constitution provides for freedom of belief and the practice of religious rites, although the Government places restrictions on these rights in practice. Islam is the official state religion and Shari'a (Islamic law) is the primary source of legislation; religious practices that conflict with the Government's interpretation of Shari'a are prohibited.
Members of non-Muslim religious minorities officially recognized by the Government generally worship without harassment and maintain links with coreligionists in other countries; however, members of religious groups that are not recognized by the Government, particularly the Baha'i Faith, experience personal and collective hardship.
The status of respect for religious freedom by the Government declined during the period covered by this report; there continued to be abuses and numerous restrictions, and some improvements. Despite the passage of constitutional amendments that underscored the principle of equal citizenship rights regardless of religion, several high-profile prosecutions and legal decisions against religious minorities during the reporting period called into question the commitment of the Government to the principle of religious freedom. Some of these cases remained under appeal at the end of the reporting period.
On April 24, 2007, the Court of Administrative Justice ruled that the Interior Ministry was not obligated to recognize conversion to Christianity by Christian-born converts to Islam. The Court ruled that such recognition would violate the prohibition against apostasy under Islamic Shari'a and constitute a "manipulation of Islam and Muslims." This ruling was inconsistent with verdicts issued over the previous 3 years by another judge in the same court on behalf of 32 such converts and maintained a government policy not to provide a legal means for converts from Islam to Christianity to amend their civil records to reflect their new religious status. The previous court rulings had ordered the Interior Ministry to issue amended identification cards to the 32 citizens who sought to reconvert to Christianity.
In May and June 2007, officials of the State Security Intelligence Service (SSIS) arrested members of "the Quranis," who were subsequently charged with "denigrating religions." Sources close to Bahaa al-Accad, a convert from Islam to Christianity who was detained for 25 months without charge, reported SSIS officials threatened his personal security following his April 28, 2007 release. On February 22, 2007, Abdel Karim Nabil Suleiman, whose blog entries had contained strongly worded critiques of the practice of Islam and the Sunni Muslim orthodoxy of the Azhar educational system, was sentenced to 3 years in prison for "denigrating Islam." During the reporting period, SSIS agents reportedly detained a Jehovah's Witness and, while making demeaning comments about the Jehovah's Witnesses, struck the detainee repeatedly and threatened him and his family with ongoing harassment unless he agreed to become an informant on the Witness community..."
Egypt use to be predominately Christian until Islamic conquest around 640-650 A.D
Oh, oh, I meant Arab conquest in 640. Then Egypt came under Muslim rule.
Proud Muslim 10/14/2008 7:40:36 PM
zTruth, I did not say there are no credible sources on the Internet. I said not all sources on the Internet are credible. Best way to study Islam is by studying it's Holy book, the Quran, same as I study calculus using my math book, or physics with my physics book. You can also find credible sources online, but it's simply smarter to study the Quran first, then websites.
Yes, Egypt used to be Christian, same as most of the world at the time. But they saw more in Islam, which is what Christianity used to be before the Trinity was introduced. To say Egypt came under Muslim rule is inaccurate. Egypt's rulers didn't change, except when Moses overcame Pharaoh. Egyptians simply left Christianity for Islam, though there is still a significant number of Coptic Christians in Egypt today.
zTruth 10/16/2008 2:30:03 PM
Proud Muslim, what are your sources that Christians in Egypt saw more in Islam - or am I just suppose to take your word for it? Your said that Egypt didn't come under Muslim rule. Does the name Omar (Umar) Ibn AlKhattab, the 2nd Islamic caliphate, ring a bell?
From Princeton University we learn: "...During Umar's reign, the Persians were defeated in Iraq and eastern Iran, effectively wiping out the Sassanid dynasty, while the Byzantines were defeated in Syria, Palestine and Egypt..." Now if Princeton is inaccurate here, please write them a letter, demand this misinformation be removed or better yet sue them and force the truth out in court so the public can follow.
Also google: "guidedways" which is an Islamic website that has the certification as having accurate Islamic material online - look for the certificates on their about page.
Proud Muslim 10/16/2008 5:25:19 PM
zTruth, look at the facts. Egypt was once mostly Christian, you said it yourself. Today, Egypt is mostly Muslim. If you don't believe me, look it up. Now why would Egypt convert from Christianity to Islam? Omar ibn AlKhattab (may God be pleased with him) was Muslim, but he was not Caliphate of the "Muslim Empire", he was the Caliphate of the "Ottoman Empire". After the Arabs had removed the invader Byzantines, Egyptians had been placed in rule of Egypt again (under the Ottoman Empire, of course).
Notice Princeton doesn't say "the Byzantines were defeated by the Muslim Empire". I see no reason, then, to be suing Princeton.
zTruth 10/18/2008 8:55:43 AM
Omar "the Conqueror" was caliphate of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Eqypt was forced to be under his rule by his conquest. You twist the truth.
Proud Muslim 10/18/2008 6:10:11 PM
Actually, al-Khattab means "the Speaker", not "the Conqueror". And that's z truth.
zTruth 10/19/2008 8:58:06 AM
Sure...
Enter the follow in YouTube search: Umar Ibn Al-Khattab: Legends of Islam. Read the title: "The conqueror of the World"? This is a video made by a Muslim leader. I glanced over the responses. Nobody disputed his title. Perhaps you should correct the misperception put out by one of your fellow Muslims.
Proud Muslim 10/19/2008 9:58:06 AM
You do your research on Youtube? That explains a lot.
zTruth 10/21/2008 2:11:06 PM
Oh, oh, I see I've hit a nerve. I'll correct anything that can be proven incorrect. But you just saying so doesn't count. Sorry. Some of your fellow Muslims, like Jamal Badawi, get their word out on YouTube or haven't you noticed? He represented IST as their Quran expert at the famous Christian/Muslim debate in January.
I see now that this debate is on Yusef Qaradawi's Qatar-based Islamonline the last I looked. You are familiar with Qaradawi, aren't you? But back to my previous point. How do you explain "The Conqueror of the World" title used by the Muslim leader I referred to above.
Proud Muslim 10/21/2008 5:26:49 PM
"I see I've hit a nerve"
You keep telling yourself that :)
I never heard of Jamal Badawi before the debate (I was born and raised here in Tulsa, so I'm not as familiar with Middle Eastern scholars as others may be), but from what I heard, the debate wasn't much of a debate. It was more like a football game...minus the referee.
But back to your previous point, if that's what you want to call it. What's to explain? Someone by the name of Ahmad Jibril called Umar AlKhattab (may God be pleased with him) the "Conqueror of the World". But "just saying so doesn't count. Sorry
Breaking bread and barriers- Proud Muslim 10/22/2008 1:56:17 PM
God's org. plan"
God's plans don't change due to some external factor. He is all-knowing, and He knew Adam would sin. He is also all-merciful, and to doubt God's mercy is to doubt God's existence. You cannot inherit sin. If one could, the child of a criminal would be responsible for crimes committed by his/her father/mother, and that is not the case. Adam is responsible for his sins alone, and I am responsible for my sins alone.
"He sent Jesus to die in our place"
"It took a perfect man to buy back what Adam lost for us"
Wrong. It'll take the choice of right over wrong for each individual to be rewarded with paradise.
"Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and gave up His glory in heaven to come to earth and be born as a man."
I don't even know where to begin on this one. Jesus is the son of Mary. He had no father. If the "necessity" for a virgin birth was to save Jesus from some kind of "sinful" birth, then Mary could not be his mother, by your logic. Mary was one of the offspring of Adam, like the rest of us. Jesus was born as a man because he _was_ a man. Jesus is not God, nor is he God's son.
"JESUS is coming back"
No, he isn't, and maybe from my argument you can see why.
Jesus was a man.
Jesus died (wasn't killed).
Dead men don't come back.
Jesus isn't coming back.
"Are you ready for Him? I am."
Wow. I know I'm a "Proud Muslim", but this just takes the cake.
You're ready? Really? You can stand in front of God and know you have no reason to worry? You've been an angel all your life, and have never sinned?
"I AM FORGIVEN of the sin nature I inherited from Adam and therefore can live with a Holy God forever."
Oh, I see how it is. You can be forgiven for your sins, but Adam, who had seen God and Heaven with his own eyes, can't.
zTruth 10/23/2008 12:56:01 PM
Jamal Badawi is Egyptian by birth but is probably a Canadian citizen. He was ID'd by the FBI as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and named their point person for Islamic dawah, which is what he does. This is an indisputable fact.
Your downplaying of the debate is silly. It was huge and said a whole lot about the Islamic Society of Tulsa.
The debate was selected by Yusef Qaradawi's website, Islamonline, and featured for a while on the homepage. Last I checked it is still there but not highlighted on the homepage.
Yusef Qaradawi, is a designated terrorist. Jamal Badawi serves on several Islamic boards that Qaradawi chairs. IST picked Badawi to represent them as their Quranic expert. Do you see how this tells us a whole heck of a lot about IST?
I can see why, after the fact, you are downplaying it. If this is all new to you then you need to do some serious studying.
You earlier said Egypt became Islamic because Christians saw more in Islam rather than the fact this country was seized by an Islamic ruler. And now, you claim little knowledge about Middle East scholars.
Apparently, your limitations covers both past and present scholars
Proud Muslim 10/23/2008 5:33:58 PM
"Your downplaying of the debate is silly."
If you insist. I didn't go, but people who did go agree that there really wasn't much substance. It was just two pep rallies in the same room. But if you really want to believe that it was huge, that both sides made major points, and that this should have been reported in national headlines, go right ahead, I can't stop you.
I don't know anything about Yusef Qaradawi or Jamal Badawi, but you seem to know that they are full-blown terrorists, and that the IST is in cahoots with them. (Insert sarcasm)Darn, you caught us, you must be with the CIA!(End sarcastic note).
"Apparently, your limitations covers both past and present scholars."
Well...yeah. At least as fas as Middle Eastern ones go. I studied American history in school (they don't teach Middle Eastern history at Union :( ), so I don't really know Middle Eastern scholars. But I do know some Islamic / Egyptian history, which is the category my earlier statement falls in, so I do know that Islam was embraced in Egypt because, well, it's right.
zTruth 10/25/2008 10:17:32 AM
Ok, so you don't really know Middle East Scholars. Don't you owe it to yourself to find out more, especially the ones that are brought to your mosque? Or referenced in their newsletters?
A statement by Yusef Qaradawi was used by IST after 9/11. In that statement he said he disapproved of what happened in the U.S. but made reference that within Israel terrorist operations are approved by him. He is the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Odd, that the IST would chose to have Muslim Brotherhood leaders speak for them and represent them.
The Muslim Brotherhood approves and supports HAMAS. The Muslim Brotherhood seeks the destruction and/or end of Israel. Yet, in the Quran, Palestine is never mentioned. It's never mentioned because it never existed during the time the Quran was written. But in the Bible and the Quran, Israel and its right to land is mentioned. How do you reconcile that?
You said Islam was embraced in Egypt. Did you base that statement on what you have been told or what the history shows? An Islamic ruler seized control of Egypt. Everything favored Islam from that point forward as it does now in Islamic countries. People went to Islam out of fear or retribution.
In the Middle East today most often the state religion is ISLAM and to change religion is nearly impossible, unless it's Islam. This is what Islamic rule does to people - it stifles freedom of religion and favors only one religion - Islam. The Imam of IST even said in print that people have freedom of religion over there which is not accurate.
When the Islamic Ottoman Empire was finally defeated something else was created in order to try to get back to the caliphate: The Muslim Brotherhood.
You downplayed the debate, yet the Muslim Brotherhood's chosen dawah man, Jamal Badawi, is the reason the debate is on Yusef Qaradawi's website. I wonder how many Oklahomans, who were at the debate, like being seen on this designated terrorist website. How do you think Islamonline got the debate?
The Islamic Society of Tulsa choose to bring Badawi in to represent them as their Quranic expert. Furthermore, they failed to provide full disclosure that Badawi is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Proud Muslim 10/25/2008 7:57:09 PM
"The Muslim Brotherhood seeks the destruction and/or end of Israel. Yet, in the Quran, Palestine is never mentioned. It's never mentioned because it never existed during the time the Quran was written."
Israel isn't exactly a popular country right now, even in Europe (comments on the BBC website often think less of Israel than they do Iran). People tend to tie religion into the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but it's really a land ownership dispute.
Palestine did exist, it didn't just fall from the sky. It simply wasn't called Palestine. Nonetheless, the people of that land have lived there for generation after generation. They were forced out of their homes just because someone else wanted it. That's why Israel is so condemned around the globe.
Again, I don't know about Qaradawi's or Badawi's ties to terrorism, but I don't agree with everything IST does. The debate itself was a bad idea. The last thing Muslims in Tulsa need is conflict with Christians. We need to learn to accept each other, not fight each other. I also disagreed with their decision to fire our last Imam. He was a very kind man, and he encouraged education via a summer school program. Our current Imam is also a nice guy, but kind of reserved.
Freeze warnings and watches in place overnight- Proud Muslim 10/26/2008 10:36:58 PM
Proud Muslim 10/27/2008 11:38:58 PM
I've read some of your blogs, by the way. I've noticed you always use the same strategy. You try to give the impression that you're are sincere and open-minded, and then you try to link terrorism with Islam. However, you rarely quote the Quran in making your cases. Do you honestly expect any intellectual to take you seriously?
zTruth 10/28/2008 12:50:00 PM
Best I can tell Palestine was created when the Islamic Ottoman Empire seized land just like it did when it invaded Egypt. After this Islamic empire was defeated, Israel was given its proper home back. The Bible and the Quran both speak of Israel's right to its land. Israel has existed for a very,very long time supported by two holy books. Palestine is not supported by either book.
The Palestinians were offered a two state solution more than once which they and Middle East leaders rejected because, as I understand it, the Middle East wants all of the land of Israel.
Do you think Christians have not noticed the concerted efforts of Muslims to try to sway our support away from Israel? This hits at the very heart of Biblical beliefs. It is very insulting. Christians are insulted daily by anti-Israeli words and vicious terrorist attacks long approved by Muslim Brotherhood spiritual leader Yusef Qaradawi. Yet, his post 9/11 statement was chosen by the IST as a source of Muslim leadership they stood behind.
Did you go to the IST "Know Your Neighbor" series where they showed the film Occupation 101? This film was a one-sided view of the Palestinian plight with one theme - it's all Israel's fault. In an IST newsletter there was a graphic which showed Israel as being the occupier since it was given back its land in 1948. I don't know, maybe it is just me, but this sure tell me IST wants Israel gone.
IST and you both ignore that it was Israel who was displaced by an Islamic ruler and that is why it was restored to its land by an international body.
Proud Muslim, I don't link terrorism to Islam. I primarily use the words and actions of Muslims themselves which shows the link quite nicely. For example, Jamal Badawi, who was selected to represent IST as their Quran expert, has his views supporting martyrdom on terror-supporter Yusef Qaradawi's website. It's not a good feeling knowing he was specifically selected by IST. It fact it was very disturbing and shocking.
Last summer your mosque published in their newsletter that fighting and dying for Allah or Islam was a good way to go for a Muslim. "Fighting and dying" were their own words not mine.
How do we learn to accept each other? You tell me.
Proud Muslim 10/28/2008 4:33:51 PM
Really? The Ottoman Empire created Palestine? They shoveled soil into the ocean until a country formed? Hmm....
The Zionists were offered to share the land but they rejected because, as I understand it, they wanted Jews-only land.
zTruth, all the monotheistic religions hold the place dear to their hearts, not just Christians. And not all Christians support the country of Israel. Look around, and you'll see it's mostly the American ones, and not even all of them support Israel.
I didn't go to the KYN thing, but I did hear about it. It was hard not to hear about it, they made a big fuss. But again, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a LAND-OWNERSHIP dispute. It has nothing to do with religion, even if you or the IST would like to make it one.
"I don't link terrorism to Islam"
I hear you talkin, but talk's cheap. I read that list of questions about Islam. You asked about 50 questions. Of those, about 10 asked about terrorism, about 7 asked about Israel, and a few asked about politics.
You aren't interested in the theology of Islam. You're interested in terrorism, antisemitism, and political corruption, and how you can link that to Islam.
How do we accept each other?
Don't ask me, ask Martin Luther King, Jr.
Martin Luther King: "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
....I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
....And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:
Free at last! Free at last!
Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
Proud Muslim 10/28/2008 8:50:12 PM
PS: Here's a great video about Muslims in America. It's done by Al-Jazeera. They meet Muslim rappers, Muslim comedians, Muslims protesting torture, Muslims in the army, a Muslim fireman in New York who was there September 11th, and many more.
youtube . com/watch?v=rUk9UykY174
Islamic terrorism has a global reach which is unprecedented in history that is of interest to me. ISLAMIC TERRORISM, Proud Muslim. Additional it is Islamism, the pursuit of global Islamic rule that is of great interest to me. It is the infiltration of our country by Islamists that is of concern to me. It is the global attempt by Islamists to shutter any criticism of Islam that is of great interest to me.
One of the largest Islamist organization in the world is the Muslim Brotherhood. HAMAS grew out of their organization in Palestine. Egypt has been fighting against them for decades. The Muslim Brotherhood support HAMAS.
As I said before, I don't link terrorism to Islam - Muslims do that for me all the time - including IST and the Muslim Brotherhood leaders they have presented to the public. Yusef Qaradawi has ruled that "Islamic approved" martyrdom within Israel. is OK, including the killing of women and children. IST chose his statement to stand behind after 9/11.
Now, how am I suppose to think about that? Good?
You also overlooked my statement that many Muslims only want to practice the religion of Islam - theological Islam - who also reject the Islamic ideology of Islamism.
Your mosque, has not rejected Islamism that I am aware. They would probably argue there is no such word. That's what Islamists do, it seems to me. There are a number of Muslims and organizations who reject Islamism. Several of them I have written about and admire.
In addition to using MB leaders, IST has also aligned themselves with CAIR, an organization that grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America. This is indisputable documented facts readily available in court documents. CAIR is currently working to stop any use of the words Islamism, Jihadist, Islamic terrorism by public officials.
Just recently I read on a new Muslim blog here in Oklahoma how CAIR was waiting after Friday prayers to sign people up to vote. CAIR is largely a political structure, algined with MB ideology, I believe, but presents itself to the unknowing public as a mere civil rights group. It is troubling to see that IST partnered with them.
Jamal Badawi, is a MB leader, and is a board member of CAIR Canada. Badawi currently belongs to a Muslim organization in Canada that openly states their alignment with the Muslim Brotherhood ideology of its founder. When I exposed this - guess what? They took down the website. But silly me, I have learned to save these webpages to have a permanent record.
CAIR has also hosted some political forums in Oklahoma. They appear to do most of their work behind the scenes not seeking publicity about what they do in this regard.
IST appears not to be interested in just the theology of Islam, it seems to me but yet you complain about me.
If you just want to practice the religion of Islam why do you go to a mosque which appears to be aligned with Islamists and their organizations?
Proud Muslim 10/30/2008 11:59:29 AM
You do realize you just proved my point?
zTruth 10/30/2008 7:50:50 PM
Sorry - this doesn't prove your point but rather mine.
Proud Muslim 10/30/2008 9:27:19 PM
Let me explain, zTruth.
Proud Muslim: "I read that list of questions about Islam. You asked about 50 questions. Of those, about 10 asked about terrorism, about 7 asked about Israel, and a few asked about politics. You aren't interested in the theology of Islam. You're interested in terrorism, antisemitism, and political corruption, and how you can link that to Islam."
zTruth: "Islamic terrorism...ISLAMIC TERRORISM...Islamism...pursuit of global Islamic rule...the infiltration of our country by Islamists that is of concern to me...the global attempt by Islamists to shutter any criticism of Islam that is of great interest to me...Islamist organization...Muslim Brotherhood...HAMAS...Muslim Brotherhood support HAMAS...IST and the Muslim Brotherhood leaders ...Yusef Qaradawi...the killing of women and children....IST...9/11...Islamism...Islamists...MB leaders, IST...CAIR, an organization that grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America...CAIR is currently working to stop any use of the words Islamism, Jihadist, Islamic terrorism by public officials...Jamal Badawi, is a MB leader, and is a board member of CAIR Canada...Islamists and their organizations?"
I rest my case. You never quote the Quran. Probably never read it. So how do you know what Islam says about terrorism?
zTruth 10/31/2008 9:20:04 AM
You are dancing around the obvious.
Proud Muslim 10/31/2008 12:34:50 PM
And you refuse to read it.
zTruth 10/31/2008 1:08:15 PM
Oh yes I have...
Proud Muslim 10/31/2008 5:04:56 PM
Yes you have refused to read the Quran, or yes you have read Quran?
Probably the first one.
zTruth 10/31/2008 8:31:59 PM
I have read the Quran more than once. I've also used difference translations. Which translation do you use?
I've use the compendium of Muslim Text at USC, were each verse was translated by three different men: Yusefali, Pickthal, and Shakir. I've also used George Sale's translation completed in 1734, for comparison. A book of this translation was owned by Thomas Jefferson which was used by Keith Ellision to be sworn in office with.
And your point is?
Proud Muslim 10/31/2008 8:50:16 PM
My point is you don't read it. I don't care how many translations you have. You could have a library. But you don't read them, or if you do, you don't use them. I've read close to no verses from the Quran on your blogs, at least the ones I've seen. You go on and on about terrorism and the "threat" of Islam in America, but you don't refer to the Quran in your "studies". You probably didn't watch the video of Muslims in America that I bothered to post.
If you really were studying Islam, you think you would mention the Quran every now and then.
"MLK: "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
zTruth 11/1/2008 9:52:47 AM
My, my my - you just called me a liar. You can try to deflect away the fact that your mosque has aligned itself with some Muslim Brotherhood leaders all you want and blame me as the problem but that doesn't change the truth.
I asked you what translation of the Quran do you read? Can you not even answer that simple question?
Why don't you ask your mosque leaders why Jamal Badawi and Yusef Qaradawi approve of terrorism within Israel and why they presented them to Oklahomans as a source of Islamic authority. How do they feel that the Christian/Muslim debate is on terrorist Qaradawi's Islamonline as well as other articles about IST and/or CAIR Oklahoma? Although now it seems to have subsided some since I brought attention to this. I'd like to know how they feel, wouldn't you? These Islamic leaders, I might add, believe in the ideology of Islamic supremacy and rule.
Qaradawi is banned from ever entering the United States for his religious rulings on terrorism and as a result he started Islamonline in order to continue his quest to bring Islam to entire world. Yet IST chose his statement to use after 9/11. Not cool.
"...It is our duty to carry this religion to all people around the world until they understand it, become interested in it, look for it, and enter it in surges as God would like. This is the duty of the Islamic nation. It is a collective obligation for this nation to propagate the message of this religion to the corners of the globe, and it is an individual obligation for the scholars of this religion to propagate Islam in all languages and tongues and be as God said: "We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people in order to make (things) clear to them." Qaradawi on Islamonline
As I said before I dont link Islam to terrorism or Islamism since Muslims and many of their leaders do it for me by their very own words and actions. The Quran is not only a book of spiritualness but also lays out verses on war, fighting, martyrdom, and Islamic rule.
(4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
Sura (2:207) - "And there is the type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah..."
Sura (61:10-12) "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement."
From the Hadith:
Bukhari (52:54) - The words of Muhammad: "I would love to be martyred in Al1ah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred." This is why modern-day Jihadists often say that they love death.
Muslim (20:4678) - During the battle of Uhud, Muhammad was desperate to push men into battle. He promised paradise for those who would martyr themselves, prompting a young man who was eating dates to throw them away and rush to his death.
Muslim (20:4655) - A man asks Muhammad "which of men is the best?" Muhammad replies that it is the man who is always ready for battle and flies into it "seeking death at places where it can be expected."
Muslim (20:4681) - "Surely, the gates of Paradise are under the shadows of
Proud Muslim 11/1/2008 12:00:37 PM
Finally, some results!
What translation do I read? The one written in Arabic...
Where did I blame you as the problem of IST? I blamed you of being narrow-minded and attacking Islam as a religion of terror without even glancing at the Quran.
Surah Nisa, Aya 74 (4:74) was revealed when the Meccan army was approaching the Muslims. The next verse reads "And what reason do you have not to fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors: and raise for us from Thee one who will help!""
Surah At-Tauba, Aya 111 (9:111), as far as I can tell, promises Heaven to those who gave up their lives protecting the true faith, Islam, and everything it stands for.
Surah Baqarah, Aya 207 (2:207) is pretty much like 9:111.
Surah As-Saff, Ayas 10-12 promise Heaven to those who "strive in the cause of God". This aya was revealed shortly after the Battle of Uhud, in which many Muslims had died. Of course, there are many ways to "strive in the cause of God", other than war. Like memorizing the Quran.
Bukhari (52:54) has some missing:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Al1ah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.
Muslim (20:4678):
It has been reported on the authority of Jabir that a man said: Messenger of Allah, where shall I be if I am killed? He replied: In Paradise. The man threw away the dates he had in his hand and fought until he was killed (i.e. he did not wait until he could finish the dates).
In the version of the tradition narrated by Suwaid we have the words: "A man said to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). on the day of Uhud......"
Muslim (20:4655):
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Of the men he lives the best life who holds the reins of his horse (ever ready to march) in the way of Allah, flies on its back whenever he hears a fearful shriek, or a call for help, flies to it seeking death at places where it can be expected. (Next to him) is a man who lives with his sheep at a hill-top or in a valley, says his prayers regularly, gives Zakat and worships his Lord until death comes to him. There is no better person among men except these two.
Proud Muslim 11/1/2008 8:00:06 PM
You really need to watch that video. It just might make that narrow mind of yours a little wider. Maybe.
zTruth 11/2/2008 1:17:28 PM
Am I narrow-minded or it is that a strict intepretation of your religion that is? In the few versus shown above we read that Islam is the only true religion and dying and fighting for it will be rewarded in paradise and that being martyred is a good thing. Wonderful.
The video was fine. There are many fine Muslims who live in America as I have always said. There are many fine Muslims in America who want to just practice their religion and are against Islamism. Hooray for them.
I do take exception in the video that the Quran was read by our founding fathers which helped shape our constitition. This is completely misleading.
Our founding fathers struggled against Islamic aggression for four decades. Thousands of Americans were kept as slaves after being captured by Islamic pirates. The Quran was read trying to understand why we were being attacked without cause in the shipping lanes around Africa. It's all recorded in the Congressional records and other documents. There is a very tedious book to read which was written after researching these documents for three years called Victory at Tripoli.
I suggest you read it.
Proud Muslim 11/2/2008 1:53:49 PM
Islam is the only true religion. You may not believe it, but I do. Do you not believe your religion is the only true one?
Being martyred protecting Islam is a good thing, but today, there is no Islamic caliphate that needs to be defended, so it is irrelevant.
"Islamic pirates" is an oxymoron. Pirates steal goods and kill without reason, both of which is denounced in the Quran.
zTruth 11/3/2008 8:09:05 AM
"Being martyred protecting Islam is a good thing"
What you just said is very worrisome. Is this how Islam is taught and conveyed to the Muslims who go to the IST mosque?
See how easy it is for me to use the words and actions of Muslims. I just publicize what you all say.
Thanks.
Here's some history:
In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams, then the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain.
The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress' vote to appease.
During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.
In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."<
Proud Muslim 11/3/2008 12:58:30 PM
Proud Muslim 11/3/2008 3:16:14 PM Thank you Basil, I must say I'm surprised to see your post. "2 men killed by driver in parking lot" zTruth 11/4/2008 2:28:34 PM
I had a power outage so here is the last part of the comment above: Proud Muslim 11/4/2008 5:14:29 PM
James, maybe you don't like the idea of religion. That's your right. I do believe in God, and that is my right. There you go again, "linking" Islam to terrorism. Wall between women and men prayer halls. zTruth 11/4/2008 7:46:14 PM Qaradawi and Badawi are two Muslim leaders whom IST has presented to Oklahomans as Islamic authorities. Both approve of ISLAMIC terrorism. Proud Muslim 11/4/2008 8:55:56 PM
And...
Proud Muslim 11/4/2008 11:07:12 PM
If you have a point to make, make it.
zTruth 11/5/2008 7:52:06 AM
And... Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 8:17:04 AM
Are you giving up, zTruth? If you are, just say so. And if you're feeling especially noble, admit that you're wrong and that terrorism can't be linked to Islam.
Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 8:19:46 AM
Uh oh, zTruth, James said he would defend my right to my religion! He must be a terrorist, right?
zTruth 11/5/2008 9:18:06 AM
I feel especially driven to keep on keeping on about you and your dishonesty.
Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 2:42:37 PM "a moral obligation to bring the world into submission to Islam, which is taught in the Koran and Hadith to be the will of Allah" - Basil No, remember that Islam itself is "submission". You cannot submit to submission (or if you can, I don't understand how). Rather, we call ourselves Muslims after Ibrahim (Abraham), who submitted to God without hesitation. Islam means submission to God, and a Muslim is one who submits to God. Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 2:59:56 PM Look at Basil's posts if you need an example.
zTruth 11/5/2008 4:11:42 PM "Keeping on keeping on" is a phrase used by really cool people.
Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 4:59:51 PM Let me help you. Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 5:31:08 PM
Is it really? I thought Bush said it. Either way, it doesn't make zTruth look very good. Proud Muslim 11/5/2008 7:08:53 PM Did some research, and the saying actually goes back before the 1910s. zTruth 11/6/2008 9:29:10 AM Proud Muslim, you epitomize the very Muslim I refer to in my "Questions about Islam" section. You seem to do exactly what I said Muslims often do when they are asked the hard questions about Islam. You balk, you hedge, you cry foul or blame the person who asked. Some even lie or claim Islamophobia. So your attempts at this does not bother me. I expect it. Proud Muslim 11/6/2008 9:55:48 AM zTruth, I can't find where I "balk", "hedge", or "cry foul". Argue, maybe, but not "balk", "hedge", or "cry foul". Proud Muslim 11/6/2008 3:52:11 PM Basil, Jesus was a prophet, and it would be unjust of me to say Prophet Muhammed was a greater prophet than Prophet Isa (Jesus), peace and blessings be upon them both. After all, I'm in no position to judge. zTruth 11/7/2008 2:04:23 PM I'm glad your studies are going well. Proud Muslim 11/7/2008 5:39:11 PM
Basil, I agree with you in some places, but disagree in others. Zionists did want land for Jews only, despite offers to share the land with the Palestinians. You do ignore the Quran in your "studies". If you physically attacked my right to practice Islam, I would reserve the right given to me to physically defend it. I really was lost in your mass of erroneous arguments. You really did refuse to give any further arguments or admit you were mistaken in your attempt to link terrorism to Islam. Which one is it? zTruth 11/7/2008 6:38:25 PM Does Yusef Qaradawi approve of martyrdom, Proud Muslim? Let's see if you can handle this simple question without being sarcastic, or blame me, or whatever. Proud Muslim 11/7/2008 7:56:44 PM ZTruth 11/8/2008 8:11:08 AM
PM, In you last lengthly comment to me, you just deflected the Badawi and Qaradawi issue back on me. You did not respond. It's obvious, man what you are doing. Proud Muslim 11/8/2008 9:27:02 AM ...to see right through these feeble attempts to defect those tough questions." Do you honestly think those check points popped up after 9/11? Security may have tightened, and for good reason, but security was already there. That is what I'm talking about. You have confused terrorism with the teachings of Islam. Why do you want to question Muslims? Because of terrorism? If that is the case, then you are not as open-minded as you say you are. I am a Muslim, and I have done nothing illegal or wrong. zTruth 11/8/2008 10:33:32 AM
PM said "I have confused terrorism with the teachings of Islam." Proud Muslim 11/8/2008 11:00:23 AM
"It wasn't me who ruled in fatwas that killing of oneself in order to kill others is acceptable in Islam. It wasn't me who selected this leader's statement to use after 9/11." zTruth 11/10/2008 7:04:30 AM The Quran says not to kill the innocent. However, the statement the Islamic Society of Tulsa used after 9/11 from the Islamic leader of the Muslim Brotherhood had ruled that the killing of women and children in Israel is acceptable.
Proud Muslim 11/10/2008 12:44:08 PM Proud Muslim 11/10/2008 1:34:32 PM zTruth 11/10/2008 1:44:07 PM
The Islam in Oklahoma page on "War and Fighting in Islam" isn't about self-defense. It is about war and fighting. Are you that dumb?
Proud Muslim 11/10/2008 2:16:22 PM Oh no, you called me dumb! You huwt my feewings! zTruth 11/11/2008 9:32:02 AM Sorry, I shouldn't have called you dumb. Proud Muslim 11/11/2008 10:17:53 AM
No, it isn't. If the military threatened my life just because I'm Muslim, I have the right and even the duty to defend my self. Of course, the chances of a military coup are slim to none here in America.
zTruth 11/11/2008 2:24:53 PM
PM, you said you would fight the military if they threatened your life because you are a Muslim. You said it was your duty to fight. Your example of a military coup is just one definition, to me. Military could be defined in other ways. zTruth 11/11/2008 6:42:54 PM "Fighting to establishing justice - a supreme goal (of Islam)" XXXX Justice: If you tried to use violence to take away my right to practice Islam, that would be unjust as ruled by the 1st Amendment, and I would resort to self-defense and protest. And if you tried to use violence to take away the same right from Jews, for example, I would also stand up and help them fight in self-defense and protest. zTruth 11/12/2008 8:11:11 AM Justice in Islam could be different than justice for non-Muslims and others. Everyday, we read about one Islamic group or another seeking "justice" violently. They do this by taking the law into their own hands. Some may be practicing within the context of the Quran and others may not. "No where in our laws would anyone have a right to defend their religion physically" zTruth: The 2nd amendment states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Proud Muslim 11/12/2008 12:31:22 PM As far as self-defense goes, in the Supreme Court decision District of Columbia vs. Heller, it was ruled that self defense is a central component to the Second Amendment. I legally have the right to defend my self. zTruth 11/12/2008 11:40:48 AM
The 2nd amendment states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." zTruth 11/12/2008 7:08:51 PM Should any religion preach to its followers to use fighting or violence that are outside the law?
Proud Muslim 11/12/2008 8:36:45 PM
Of course not. That's why Islam teaches: Proud Muslim 11/12/2008 9:36:41 PM
Or to be more specific, as long as the "law" doesn't try to take away my unalienable rights (like freedom of religion and freedom of assembly).
zTruth 11/13/2008 7:45:04 AM
Has there ever been a case where a Muslim was physically stopped from practicing Islam in America?
Proud Muslim 11/13/2008 8:57:41 AM Not that I know of, fortunately. We're lucky enough to live in a country where religious persecution is no longer heard of. zTruth 11/13/2008 7:08:07 PM
This is not so for most people who live in Islamic countries where the laws, constitution or practices generally only favor Islam.
Proud Muslim 11/13/2008 9:11:40 PM
Back to square one, huh? The Quran and Hadith are the teachings of Islam. If you want to convince me that Islam in violent, you will have to provide evidence from these two sources. I too could name violent histories of Christian nations, but I do not blame Christianity for this violence, only the Christians. zTruth 11/14/2008 8:44:01 AM Proud Muslim 11/14/2008 12:07:27 PM Proud Muslim 11/14/2008 11:01:07 PM zTruth 11/15/2008 10:45:15 AM Muslims do everything for the sake of God. We eat, sleep, pray, and learn all for the sake of God. This way, we refrain ourselves from sinning. After all, how can you sin for the sake of God? Fighting is no exception. As I've said before, fighting has it's rules. For self-defense and against oppressors, and one must never kill innocents. zTruth 11/17/2008 12:27:27 PM
You forgot to mention that fighting for the sake of justice is the supreme goal of Islam, as mentioned before. Of course, the laws in America supersede any and all religious texts regarding fighting and justice. Proud Muslim 11/17/2008 2:29:01 PM "You forgot to mention that fighting for the sake of justice is the supreme goal of Islam" Proud Muslim 11/17/2008 2:54:53 PM zTruth 11/18/2008 9:57:20 AM You don't know of any religion that teaches terrorism? Proud Muslim 11/18/2008 7:04:40 PM Proud Muslim 11/18/2008 7:06:13 PM < /P> that heareth and knoweth (all things). Proud Muslim 11/18/2008 7:07:05 PM Proud Muslim 11/18/2008 7:10:19 PM
*victorious by casting
zTruth 11/19/2008 9:12:28 AM Proud Muslim 11/19/2008 1:23:27 PM zTruth, as innocents, non-Muslims should have no reason to fear Muslims. As oppressors, they should, just as they should fear every other peace-loving person they try to oppress, be they Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc, etc. From your blog: "Why don't you simply keep your verses to yourself out of respect for these religions?" Hard to follow what you preach, huh? Now, I don't have that kind of attitude and am more tolerant, but maybe you can see the problems that would result if I, and the rest of the world, did have that attitude.
zTruth 11/19/2008 5:44:04 PM You seem to have a real problem keeping what I said straight. What I said was there are many Muslims in America who just want to just practice spiritual Islam who also disavow Islamism. You do know what Islamism is, don't you? I didn't say Islam is practiced peacefully around the world. It's far from it. Proud Muslim 11/19/2008 7:05:58 PM "I have found that Muslims like to quote from the Quran to others when they can." zTruth 11/20/2008 6:18:05 AM Name one country. zTruth 11/20/2008 1:51:24 PM I should have clarified what I meant more completely. Please name one Islamic country where Islam is practiced the way we are taught about it in America. Proud Muslim 11/20/2008 10:14:06 AM Proud Muslim 11/20/2008 3:17:34 PM
How about Egypt? Turkey? zTruth 11/20/2008 6:52:43 PM<
Here's some more from Sahih al-Bukhari: zTruth 11/21/2008 8:14:24 AM
The last paragraph got cut-off:
Proud Muslim 11/21/2008 11:54:53 AM Proud Muslim 11/21/2008 1:18:40 PM
By the way, which was it, Egypt or Turkey? zTruth 11/21/2008 2:30:13 PM
Sorry Proud Muslim, I will have to go with what is in writing. If these are not accurate, it is up to the Muslim leaders in America to seek their corrections. But, I don't think this will happen because they are considered authentic. You also have said you are not an Islamic expert. Proud Muslim 11/21/2008 5:15:33 PM
Well, zTruth, anyone could write a Hadith, stick it in the book, and say it's authentic. zTruth 11/21/2008 8:02:08 PM
Anyone can write a hadth? I'm referring to an American Muslim website that has an extensive compendium of the Muslim religious text, for crying-out-loud. It's up to the Muslim leaders in America to correct this website, if these hadiths are wrong. But, as I said before, they won't do it because they are authentic. Proud Muslim 11/21/2008 8:49:43 PM Probably not anyone today, but Sahih al-Bukhari has been around for centuries. You don't think it's been changed during that time? I agree that it is the responsibility of Islamic scholars to correct this. If they don't, then they are wrong. Simple as that, really.
zTruth 11/22/2008 10:21:49 AM No one has been able to give me the name of one Islamic country, much less a list. See, you can't even do it. Uh huh, you couldn't find where the Quran and Hadith support such actions, could you? zTruth xxxPM "Uh huh, you couldn't find where the Quran and Hadith support such actions, could you?" Proud Muslim 11/22/2008 1:47:27 PM And I have already explained to you that these Hadiths are not authentic. I can prove it with the Quran, but you don't like Muslims quoting Quranic verses. You are going to have to do much more than to just tell me it isn's so. The reason? You are not an Islamic expert, as you said, so you are not qualified or really able to assure me the hadiths used at USC/MSA are not authentic. The hadiths I quoted about lying are also available at most any site that has the translation in English, including the site that has been certified as presenting authentic and accurate Quran and hadiths online (Guidedways) Proud Muslim 11/23/2008 10:45:35 AM Okay, here's a warning, I'm going to quote a verse from the Quran. I know you don't like Muslims doing that, but I need to to prove that those Hadiths aren't authentic.
zTruth 11/24/2008 11:03:49 AM
And in a couple verses shortly thereafter: zTruth 11/24/2008 11:17:17 AM You earlier mentioned Egypt as a good example how Islam is practiced in the manner you and other Muslims tell us in American: Proud Muslim 11/24/2008 11:57:51 AM
zTruth 11/25/2008 8:13:09 AM The fighting had to do with others who did not want to be forced to become Muslims, according to USC/MSA: Proud Muslim 11/25/2008 10:46:29 AM zTruth 11/25/2008 8:07:08 PM Such events aren't limited to Muslim countries. Every country in the world has witnessed similar riots."
Proud Muslim 11/26/2008 11:21:08 AM Several examples include the French Wars of Religion between the Catholics and the Protestants, the Crusades by the Christians, which was mostly against Muslims, but also extended to Jews, Mongols, pagan Slavs, etc., and the witch hunts of America. zTruth 11/26/2008 4:31:56 PM No, no, you misunderstood me, I asked for examples where these riots are taking place currently where one religion is fighting against another where Islam is not involved. Proud Muslim 11/28/2008 12:33:04 PM Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. We have much to be thankful for. zTruth 11/28/2008 2:12:17 PM
We had a blessed holiday, for sure. I love America and what it stands for, my family, and above all my faith. Proud Muslim 11/28/2008 6:06:29 PM It is good to hear you enjoyed your Thanksgiving. I too love America, what it stands for, my family, and above all my faith. Proud Muslim 11/28/2008 6:52:20 PM
I see you have titled our discussion "Innocence or deception?", and have made guesses to my personal life, including my age, gender, and the nationality of my parents. zTruth 11/29/2008 10:14:56 AM Sorry you don't like my title. I think it's fair. You know, I've said I'm not sure some Muslims are always honest about Islam and/or Islamism. You should have already known that from what you've read on my blog. That is why I came up with my questions about Islam that you referenced. I've worked on those questions for well over a year or two adding and subtracking to it, as I find appropriate. They dig deeper into Islam, beyond the rhetoric that Islam is only about peace, that we hear at interfaith meetings. In that light, I asked you to provide me one country that practices Islam the way it is presented to us. So far, I haven't found one, nor have you provided me one. I haven't had a chance to research the last two countries you provided yet, but I will. It's quite pathetic there is little to no evidence that Islam is being practiced the way we in America hear about Islam from Muslims. This results in a big credibility issue which I work tirelessly to call attention to this discrepancy. Proud Muslim 11/29/2008 1:42:45 PM o-To further complicate this issue, Islam is the only religion I'm aware of that allow lying in three circumstances; in battle, to reconcile people and bring peace between husband and wife. Because of this we must read the words in the Quran along with the carefully recorded words and deeds of their prophet to determine for ourselves what Islam is all about. o-Do Muslims, who are born in an Islamic state have freedom to change their religion? To build a church? Oops, these don't have answers: Proud Muslim 11/29/2008 2:15:46 PM:
You say your intentions are to find proof that Islam is a religion of peace. zTruth 11/30/2008 9:14:54 AM Thanks for answering my questions. I will spend some time looking over your answers. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Proud Muslim 11/30/2008 3:34:06 PM: If you need any further explanation with any of my answers, feel free to ask. Proud Muslim 11/30/2008 9:18:06 PM Here are the verses again. The first two aren't really laws, but do tell us to respect the People of the Book. The third is a clear command and definitely law. zTruth 12/1/2008 7:18:18 AM You say you are giving me your answers based on your knowledge of the Quranic verses. OK. However, you are extremely unaware of what Islamic leaders say and do. Your knowledge about its application in Islamic countries seems very limited. You told me you had no knowledge about the Islamic leaders chosen by your mosque who stood behind their statements or Islamic expertise. But to show you I really care about you, I will remove from my blog our conversation. zTruth 12/1/2008 2:39:13 PM What would you have me title it? Proud Muslim 12/1/2008 10:54:45 AM: You don't have to remove it from your blog. Maybe just change the title to something else other than "innocence or deception?". Proud Muslim 12/1/2008 8:47:42 PM: What was it titled before? "Discussion with a Muslim", or something like that? I don't know, nothing fancy. zTruth 12/2/2008 9:04:30 AM "Martyrdom is not about killing innocent people until you are killed." Proud Muslim 12/2/2008 6:35:27 PM: Martyr: zTruth 12/3/2008 9:30:22 AM Is your definition of martyr the Islamic definition or a dictionary one? I still don't follow what you said. Proud Muslim 12/3/2008 2:46:51 PM: The Islamic and dictionary definitions of martyr are one and the same. That is why "terrorism" is not the same as "martyrdom". Martyrdom does not match the situation in Israel/Palestine. That is a land ownership issue, not a religious one. That is why Qaradawi is mistaken. Proud Muslim 12/3/2008 7:15:51 PM: Lol, and yet Islam is the most similar religion to Christianity, and vice versa. zTruth 12/4/2008 7:03:04 AM You do realize Haggani is a Muslim? Have you noticed how many times you say the Muslims I have referenced are wrong? Proud Muslim 12/4/2008 12:25:56 PM: Yes, I realize Haqqini is a Muslim. That doesn't mean he can make generalizations like that. A generalization is a generalization, no matter who it's made by. zTruth 12/4/2008 8:46:16 PM I have no doubt the Muslim leaders whom I've referenced believe they are following the word of Allah and no other Islamic leaders are questioning them, that I am aware. zTruth 12/5/2008 1:09:11 PM Proud Muslim said "I'm talking about the Israel-Palestine issue. That is a job for diplomats, not imams or rabbis." Religion Briefs Trinity (12/7/2008 11:58:11 AM) Do Tulsa Muslims slaughter an animal as part of your Eid al-Adha? zTruth 12/7/2008 4:37:23 PM: It's amazing that every single Muslim leader I've referenced, including the ones your mosque has used, you claim are wrong and that you, a mere freshman in college, who admits is not an Islamic expert, is right. Proud Muslim 12/7/2008 5:25:47 PM
Considering that there are many Muslim leaders other than the ones you have mentioned, and that I've backed every one of my statements with verses from the Quran and multiple authentic Hadiths, and that there are billions of Muslims who live their lives peacefully everyday, I would say that the conclusion to be reached is that Islam is a faith that teaches peace, much like Christianity and Judaism. zTruth 12/7/2008 6:58:11 PM Perhaps can you give me some names of Islamic scholars that have Islam right since I seem to only find the ones that have it wrong. I just reviewed several of the verses Proud Muslim quoted out of the Quran and, to me, there's a lot that has to be read into them to deduce their foresight of scientific miracles. Imitation of life - 12/7/2008 6:45:38 PM
Hi, zTruth. Proud Muslim 12/7/2008 7:15:27 PM You can find long lists of Sunni, Shiite, and non-Muslim Islamic scholars on Wikipedia under the "List of Muslim scholars" article.
Religion Briefs - Proud Muslim 12/8/2008 12:16:14 PM
Yep. It's how we remember Abraham's willingness to sacrifice for God.
Religion Briefs - Proud Muslim 12/8/2008 7:42:13 PM
We go to a farm out in rural Oklahoma (not too far from here). There is a man who raises sheep and goats. He helps us slaughter an animal of our choice and we pay him for the meat. We then keep some of the meat for ourselves, give some to friends as gifts, and donate the rest as charity for the needy.
zTruth 12/8/2008 9:46:53 AM: Your idea to send me to Wikipedia was futile. Of the 13 Sunni scholars listed 4 lived centuries, 3 are connected to the controversial Tablighi Jamaat movement, one, Shahi, was so controversial he had a price put on his head, one was from Saudi Arabia, where the world sees the worst human rights violations based on strict Islamic law. Proud Muslim 12/8/2008 11:04:13 AM
8 scholars you found fault in? Those lists are pretty long. Does this mean the rest you did not find fault in? zTruth 12/9/2008 3:01:12 PM: It's easier to stick with the Islamic scholars your mosque has chosen to represent them. I could look all day at stuff on Wiki and not get anywhere. In the section I was on for Sunni scholars there were only 13 listed, 9 of them were either long dead or had problems. So figured if I kept on I would find more with the remaining 4. Proud Muslim 12/9/2008 3:22:02 PM Trooper honored for subduing man with a gun- zTruth 12/9/2008 3:13:53 PM
The man was praying to Allah to help him carry out his mission! Thank God for trooper Robinson.
zTruth 12/10/2008 10:24:23 AM Thanks for the names. I'll spend some time reviewing them when I get a chance. But in the end, I still will have to lean more on the Islamic authorities used by the Islamic Society of Tulsa. This is the largest mosque in the Tulsa area - maybe even in Oklahoma, right? In their October newsletter they referred to Jamal Badawi and on their website they refer to Badawi. So I'm thinking they believe him to be the right kind of Islamic authority for their mosque. Unfortunately, he is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and is an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land foundation terror funding trial and a close associate of terror-supporter Yusef Qaradawi. Proud Muslim 12/10/2008 11:14:55 AM: Whatever floats your boat. As long as you're placing the blame in the right place. Trooper honored for subduing man with a gun- zTruth 12/10/2008 10:04:32 AM Quite frankly, I find it shocking the Tulsa World didn't cover this story when it happened. This is not covering the news, it appears to be suppression of the news. If I missed the original story, please let me know so I can stand corrected. Cali-Girl, (12/10/2008 3:35:43 PM)
Proud Muslim, Just a thought-let me preface this by saying that I haven't read any of your comments-they might be awesome, but isn't it odd to call yourself proud...after all: "Verily, Allah does not love the proud ones." Proud Muslim 12/10/2008 4:26:53 PM: Absolutely understand, Cali-Girl. I suppose in a way it is an oxymoron. By "proud", I guess I'm really trying to say "not ashamed". My first comment was on this thread, and I wanted people to know that I felt no shame in being Muslim. I hope that no one has been insulted, or that I haven't acted arrogant due to some sense of pride in me. I apologize otherwise. Trooper honored for subduing man with a gun- z Truth 12/11/2008 12:15:25 PM Good insight Basil. Thanks. Christmas comeback- Proud Muslim 12/12/2008 8:20:24 PM Christmas comeback- zTruth 12/13/2008 8:18:08 AM
Jamal Badawi, who is used by the Islamic Society of Tulsa, from time to time, (the debate?) as a source of Islamic expertise, who is an extremely close associate of Yusef Qaradawi answered the following question about Christmas: Christmas comeback- Proud Muslim 12/13/2008 11:38:49 AM Well, zTruth, I always respond to "Merry Christmas" with "Merry Christmas". If that makes Badawi uncomfortable, too bad for him. Christmas comeback zTruth 12/13/2008 1:54:34 PM Since you have said you are a freshman in college, Proud Muslim, I'm going to assume you are around 18. Very young. Christmas comeback- Proud Muslim 12/13/2008 2:32:12 PM Young and inexperienced, huh? I suppose I can live with being called young, and I've been called worse things than inexperienced. zTruth 12/15/2008 9:02:58 AM Yep, young and inexperienced is how I consider Proud Muslim. But I do admire his/her passion and conviction about Islam. zTruth 12/13/2008 2:49:06 PM There are a number of issues I want to followup with you but I'll start with Israel. Proud Muslim 12/13/2008 5:03:36 PM
zTruth, when you look at Israel in Abrahamic texts as modern Israel, then this problem arises. zTruth 12/16/2008 8:19:45 AM Proud Muslim 12/16/2008 7:04:16 PM "Modern Israel was created because historic Israel was confiscated by the Romans and then the Ottoman Empire and maybe others in-between..." Proud Muslim 12/16/2008 7:06:32 PM Roy D Mercer, I believe I represent all of mainstream Muslims when I say this. Time of peace - zTruth 12/17/2008 1:31:26 PM We must realize that many Islamic leaders, including ones selected by the Islamic Society of Tulsa, would not approve of Muslims saying Merry Christmas. Time of peace- 12/17/2008 2:36:07 PM
That is a sad story, redbeard. Sounds like they enjoyed being your neighbor. Time of peace - zTruth 12/17/2008 7:47:06 PM Proud Muslim likes to put words in my mouth, folks. I have never said Islam is the root of all evil. If you can find where I have said this, let me know. Shame on you, Proud Muslim. zTruth 12/17/2008 7:51:19 PM Do you denounce religious fatwas that approve of martyrdom within Israel, or as you refer to it, occupied Palestine? Proud Muslim 12/17/2008 8:09:51 PM Such as...?
zTruth 12/17/2008 9:24:13 PM
It's a simple and straight-forth question really but let me see if I can word it better. Proud Muslim 12/17/2008 9:54:33 PM
I thought my question was simple and straight forward too, but let me see if I can word it better. zTruth 12/18/2008 9:56:56 AM
This is a really simple question, Proud Muslim. What's your answer?
Time of peace - zTruth 12/18/2008 10:06:07 AM
zTruth 12/18/2008 10:26:42 AM "zTruth, when Proud Muslim said "I denounce terrorism. ", what part of that didn't you understand?" zTruth 12/18/2008 1:25:22 PM tsoi, with all due respect, what I am talking about are Islamic religious rulings that have been issued that approve the blowing up of oneself in order to kill people in Israel because they are considered the occupiers of Palestine. Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 1:57:38 PM Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 2:23:30 PM
Good question, Roscoe Toomba, and well-asked. Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 2:26:34 PM Hey, I.M. Right. Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 2:54:24 PM
I know what you mean, I.M. Right. Israel going to need a new attitude, as well as the Palestinians. But I think both sides want peace, even if they have different ideas on what peace is. That's a starting place, and I think one we should pursue. Plus, a democracy in the Middle East (established properly this time) could do the USA a world of good, not to mention the Middle East. As the saying goes, the pen is mightier than the sword.
Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 3:04:50 PM
That's not the answer, Tim, because the problem isn't that simple. Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 3:22:05 PM
Sorry, Tim, if I sounded bitter or something. I believe Britain found itself between a rock and a hard place. It had made two promises that totally conflicted: a homeland to the Zionists, and independence for the Palestinians. So it did the easiest thing it could do and flew the coup.
Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 3:39:10 PM
You're right, I.M. Right, but it's either get-over-it-and-share or keep-doing-what-you're-doing.
I think we need to put our heads together and come up with a better solution.
Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 5:16:35 PM
Roscoe Toomba, you're right that Israel has no reason to play nice. But there's still a problem here, and it still needs to be solved. I don't think it's right for us to sit on our thumbs and just ignore it. Proud Muslim 12/18/2008 6:14:40 PM I'm sure one of them could, I.M. Right, and that is the easiest peaceful solution. But again, it's not the best peaceful solution. Earlier in the thread, I compared this to the Native Americans being forced out of their homes for the Europeans. I understand why the Zionists want to live there. But it doesn't give them the right to take land that belongs to someone else. zTruth 12/19/2008 10:55:53 AM
Proud Muslim said "Sorry, zTruth, but "ANY" is a little broad. Could you specify exactly what I'm denouncing/supporting?" Proud Muslim 12/19/2008 4:34:20 PM
We seem to have a misunderstanding here, zTruth. zTruth 12/21/2008 11:26:23 AM
There is no misunderstanding. Proud Muslim 12/21/2008 1:29:14 PM
True, zTruth, a simple Google search would probably give me some results. But you must remember, you are the one who brought up such fatwas, and it really is your responsibility then, especially as the prosecutor, to quote the fatwas you are talking about. If you already found these fatwas, then why are you so against a simple cut-and-paste? Can you name any Islamic scholars who have specifically condemned fatwas that approve of martyrdom? Proud Muslim 12/22/2008 11:24:14 AM
If you want specific names, you can e-mail Mr. Mawlawi and ask for them. I'm sure he wasn't talking to himself when he mentioned them in his fatwa (religious opinion, for those who don't know). Proud Muslim 12/25/2008 10:55:56 AM
Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!
Israeli troops near Gaza, airstrikes continue - zTruth 12/28/2008 9:36:29 AM
I want to add one more thing here. Proud Muslim said: "The Palestinians own the land. No one has the right to take it away from them. Israel took it anyway." Proud Muslim 12/29/2008 12:41:09 PM
You're quiet over there, zTruth. Haven't said anything in a week. I thought you said there were "a number of issues I want to followup with you". We've only started discussing one. zTruth 12/29/2008 7:57:42 PM
Boy does time fly when you are having fun. Family, Christmas, the holidays were my focus the last week. Proud Muslim 12/31/2008 12:01:32 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed your holiday of family and blogging. zTruth 12/31/2008 12:37:17 PM
Your avatar is different. What cartoon is that? Proud Musllim 12/31/2008 3:15:22 PM
It's from Disney's classic "Ala ad-Deen", or "Aladdin" in English. lil sparrow suggested we change our avatars to our favorite couple pics for Tuesday and Wednesday. At midnight, we change to kiss pics. We're meeting at the group "brookside beat".
Tulsans protest Gaza violence - Proud Muslim 1/2/2009 10:29:07 PM
I was too busy to go to the demonstration, but I was able to drive by and give them some moral support. zTruth 1/3/2009 8:30:40 AM
Thanks for the names. I'll add them to my new list after I check them out. Proud Muslim 1/3/2009 11:00:42 AM
I just wrote to Mr. Mawlawi. I will wait and see if he responds. zTruth 1/3/2009 3:34:41 PM
PM said "I believe the protesters made it clear that they were against violence, not pro-Hamas." Proud Muslim 1/3/2009 4:20:56 PM
I don't think they were. If you go to the TW article "Tulsans protest Gaza violence", the quotes of protesters and their signs make it clear that they are against violence, not pro-Hamas. zTruth 1/3/2009 4:25:29 PM
Well, PM, the first name you gave me I should have recognized, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi was interviewed in 2001 and I wrote about him in these comments and on my blog in late November. Proud Muslim 1/3/2009 5:10:21 PM According to the Wikipedia article about him, and this BBC article (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1690624.stm), he is against suicide bombings. zTruth 1/3/2009 7:31:32 PM
Well, unfortunately, there is information about him going back to 1997 of his approval of martyrdom. It appears it was only after 9/11 when he started saying he was against it and usually in the BBC press. zTruth 1/4/2009 8:40:41 AM
Also, you said "Had Israel not made its homeland by forcing others out, there would be no violence." strong>Proud Muslim 1/4/2009 2:44:01 PM
We already covered that, didn't we? Yusuf al-Qaradawi? That's word for word from his website, Islamonline. I've already explained that the Quran, which has higher priority, strictly forbids all suicide. I've also listed some names of scholars who disagree with Mr. Qaradawi's views. How much authority the IFA actually has in the average Muslim's life is hard to measure, but the Quran undoubtedly means much to Muslims. zTruth 1/4/2009 4:20:13 PM What I pointed out to you is the fact that a very large international body, the OIC, has through their figh council ruled martyrdom is acceptable. I just discovered this. Proud Muslim 1/4/2009 8:12:34 PM
Islam in a bad light? Compared to what, may I ask? zTruth 1/5/2009 10:04:35 AM
I guess you don't really have an open mind with comments like "I will be holding my nose". You seem as closed minded as they come. Proud Muslim 1/5/2009 10:26:48 AM
It's good to get different perspectives. I feel BBC and NPR do a good job of doing that. I have no need for any news network that shows only one side of the coin. That goes to both FOX and MSNBC. zTruth 1/6/2009 8:37:41 AM
PM said: "Are Muslims being shown in a bad light? I think we are, but only if you choose to look at it that way..." Proud Muslim 1/6/2009 12:17:30 PM
And there are a good number of influential Islamic scholars who disapprove of suicide bombings. That is the angle they are presenting Islam at. This is what gives Islam a good name. And the fact that there are daily good deeds taking place somewhere in the world based on God's words. Proud Muslim 1/6/2009 12:21:37 PM
Hey, Smedj. Thanks for providing facts. I still don't think a two state solution will work. Partition has never worked in the past. You can read, and probably have read, my proposed solutions above.
Proud Muslim 1/7/2009 4:08:52 PM
Here are some statistics for you, zTruth, from the 2008 Pew Global Attitudes Survey: Proud Muslim 1/7/2009 5:08:06 PM She started it...
Proud Muslim 1/7/2009 5:11:48 PM
I think you'll find this report quite interesting, zTruth. Proud Muslim 1/7/2009 9:47:42 PM
Yes, you guys sound EXACTLY alike. Now you might see why I was a little touchy earlier. As a matter of fact, I'm still not completely convinced you're not the same person! Time will tell. I've spent enough time debating with zTruth that I'll eventually be able to tell if you're two different people. zTruth 1/8/2009 7:16:15 AM
This place has been a little busy since I last got on here a couple of days ago. I'm going to respond to the last couple of posts I read the last time I was on. Proud Muslim 1/8/2009 10:01:52 AM
We all aim for peace, IzItRight. Proud Muslim 1/8/2009 11:52:35 AM
Oops, forgot the other side: zTruth 1/8/2009 2:22:48 PM
Pew's report also shows this is not translating into positiveness for Muslims. Throughout Europe there is an image problem with perception among non-Muslims. For example, 83 percent of non-Muslims in Spain consider Muslims fanatics. In the U.S. this figure is 43%. Page 6 of the report. Proud Muslim 1/8/2009 3:13:41 PM That's in the report too. It was “Some people think that suicide zTruth 1/9/2009 12:04:09 PM
Proud Muslim, you put words in my mouth, again, when you said; "As you said, views of Muslims, and Jews, are decreasing in Europe." zTruth 1/10/2009 2:01:27 PM
Smejd said: Are you telling me Turkey is under Islamic law!" Proud Muslim 1/10/2009 2:15:11 PM All, the protest that we have seen in America and Canada show disapproval of violence. For example, the Muslim Canadian Congress made a statement condemning both Hamas and Israel for their violent killing of innocents. (muslimcanadiancongress . org/20081228.html) zTruth 1/10/2009 2:18:21 PM
Hamas Charter Article 15: Proud Muslim 1/10/2009 2:41:38 PM zTruth 1/10/2009 2:58:13 PM
"America should take immediate steps to end Israel’s "illegal and immoral” offensive against the Gaza Strip Hamas rulers, the executive director of the Oklahoma City chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said Monday. Proud Muslim 1/10/2009 3:11:14 PM
zTruth 1/11/2009 11:25:53 AM
I pulled up the statement from the Muslim Canadian Congress: zTruth 1/13/2009 10:40:25 AM 1/4/09: Islamonline: Fatwas on Gaza Google: Sheikh Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti Fatwas on Gaza zTruth 1/28/2009 7:38:33 AM stuie33158, I just happen to be one worried mother and grandmother who sees Islamism as a growing threat to our democracy and the world. Islamic supremacy seeks to rule over all others, including YOU and your future unborn family members, one day. All the components of this all encompassing religious system are in the Quran and the Hadiths(the saying and deeds of the prophet of Islam) if one were to follow the literal interpretation of this religion. what_was_is 1/29/2009 6:14:51 AM
LOL I love it when some idiot comes on this site and claims we are a "Christian" nation. Yu people are about as stupid as the guys who claim to be Okies. (Almost but not quite.)
Glad my young family members don't go to the school where you teach, whatwasis. Proud Muslim 1/29/2009 9:28:21 PM
Lol, stuie, "That's why there is chocolate and vanilla"! The "shut up" part was a little harsh, though. zTruth 1/30/2009 7:09:55 AM
Yep, definitely paranoid.
dwhitney, Tulsa (1/30/2009 12:28:18 PM) Proud Muslim 1/30/2009 3:14:46
Well said, Peaceful Muslim. You definitely have more patience than I do. You are definitely a true Muslim.
Oh, oh, I made a mistake. Let me quote the 1st amendment of the Constitution of The united States of America (you know that law of the land thingy): what_was_is 2/1/2009 10:34:33 AM
what_was_is 2/1/2009 6:59:52 PM
Like you went to school long enough to know what a study hall is. I know what little education you did receive Government and democracy was definitely not your strong point. Perhaps the ideology of Fascism in the Theocratic state would have been more to your level. A theocracy is a government ran on theological ideas. Theological is religious belief. Please do not come on here acting as if you knew any of this. Your ignorance has been quite apparent in your previous post.
what_was_is 2/2/2009 7:31:59 AM
Yeah i had too easy a time bullying you, of course you did most the leg work for me. Thanks for playing. The letter the FBI's OKC City office wrote to Oklahoma Muslims who were planning to attend a meeting where the FBI was suppose to be a participant is now available online to read, for those who are interested. Part two continues here even though PM won't speak to me direclty anymor
That's what we did in the Revolutionary War.
That's what we did in the Civil War.
That's what we did in the Civil Rights Movement.
That's what we did in World War I.
That's what we did in World War II.
Maybe you find our nation's history worrying and extreme.
I don't.
I'm looking at the headlines now. As far as violence goes:
TulsaWorld:
"Enid teens charged as adults in shooting"
"Police: Man shot and killed trick-or-treater"
"Afghan finance minister's brother kidnapped"
"Felon gets 15 years for role in deadly beating"
"Alleged terrorist convicted at Gitmo"
"Tulsan gets 20 years in two cases"
"Man gets six life terms in shooting"
"UPDATED: Church compound quiet after child porn raid"
BBC:
"Policemen gunned down in Mexico"
"Guinea police tear-gas protesters "
"Seven dead in Baghdad bomb blasts "
"India minister escapes rebel hit"
NPR:
"Disruptive Jewish Settlers Anger Israeli Officials"
"Fragile Cease-Fire In Goma, Congo"
"Taliban Kill Five In Brazen Kabul Attack"
I'm not seeing any correlation between violence and religion, Basil.
Do you?
Proud Muslim, it appears you would take the law into your own hands to defend Islam, if you felt it necessary. You also compared your right to do so to the wars America has fought and other struggles where no religious doctrine was involved. Your apples to oranges comparison is way out there.
There is no correlation between religion and violence you said. Did we not just review one part of the Quran that contradicts this? Did you not say If someone attacked what you stood for, you would risk your life to protect it? In this context, you were talking about fighting and protecting Islam.
The two Muslim Brotherhood leaders whom IST has presented to Oklahomans as religious authorities have both affirmed their belief in martyrdom against Israel.
Yusef Qaradawi has endorsed Palestinian suicide bombings for twenty years. These attacks have also been sanctioned by numerous Islamic clerics.
From Islamonline:
Question: I would like to ask about the ruling of Palestinian women carrying out martyr operations.
Dr. Qaradawi answers:The martyr operation is the greatest of all sorts of jihad in the cause of Allah. A martyr operation is carried out by a person who sacrifices himself, deeming his life [of] less value than striving in the cause of Allah, in the cause of restoring the land and preserving the dignity. To such a valorous attitude applies the following Qur'anic verse: "And of mankind is he who would sell himself, seeking the pleasure of Allah; and Allah hath compassion on (His) bondmen." (Qur'an, 2: 207)
Jamal Badawi: First, the intent behind that sacrifice (martyrdom) is exclusively for the sake of pleasing God and supporting His cause. Recently, Badawi was quoted in the paper saying what is wrong with fighting to establish justice in Islam?
Proud Muslim claimed no knowledge about Yusef Qaradawi or Jamal Badawi yet reads the Quran only in Arabic.
Your new Imam, Mohamed ElGhobashy, hails from Al-Azhar University. Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the Shaikh of Al-Azhar, the highest ranking religious official in Egypt, also called for Jihad against Israel ‘in defence of the holy places, the liberation of the occupied land, and the repulsion of the enemy.’
Yet, Imam ElGhobashy said in a recent interview, "We should show this beautiful religion of mercy and peace to others," and then blamed the American media as the cause of misunderstanding about Muslims for labeling them terrorists! Of course, not ALL Muslims are terrorists but he wants us to think there are no Muslim terrorists.
You said there is no correlations between violence and religion? Proud Muslim, I'm afraid there is with Islam and many of your religion's Islamic authorities approve of it. They call it justice. In the name of Islam, they take the law into their own hands.
Americans, particularly public officials, are being shamed to dare even link Islam to terrorism or call it what it is. Yet many just quote your own religious authorities.
And on the new "Islam in Oklahoma" web-page by the Islamic Society of Tulsa and the Islamic Society of Greater Oklahoma City they wrote on their "War and fighting in Islam" section under Jihad that its meaning includes "fighting" to establish justice which is a supreme goal in Islam. Missing from this page is any statement that the laws within our country negate ANY supreme jihad fighting goals of Islam.
Islam does have a written creed for war and fighting.
Proud Muslim also lamented that women are now separated from the men when they pray at the mosque at IST. This is because a strict version of Sunni Islam is being practiced there. They call it authentic Islam which is probably a strict interpretation of the Quran.
IST's deed is held by the North American Islamic Trust, an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land terror funding trial. Your mosque is permanently affiliated with the Islamic Society of North America, also named an unindicted co-conspirator. This organization was specifically named in a Muslim Brotherhood document as
IST's deed is held by the North American Islamic Trust, an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land terror funding trial. Your mosque is permanently affiliated with the Islamic Society of North America, also named an unindicted co-conspirator. This organization was specifically named in a Muslim Brotherhood document as one of their organizations set up in America.
And finally, the person they selected to speak for them as their Quranic expert this year was named by the FBI as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood's board of directors for their North American operations. Jamal Badawi is also an unindicted co-conspirator.
Basil, again, you prove to be narrow-minded. Violence can be un-Christian, but it can't be un-Muslim? You refuse any common ground. You obviously don't know many Muslims, because if you did, you'd know they have a lot of the same values and goals as Christians. I can tell from our discussion that you're stubborn when it comes to acknowledging our similarities. That is where hate and violence come from.
zTruth, I don't even know where to start with you, but the beginning looks like a good place.
You seem to have misunderstood my comparison.
In the Civil War, we fought to preserve the Union and end slavery. Why? Because that is what America stood for.
If you attacked my right to worship God, I would defend it with protests, marches, etc.
Look at the headlines. Where are Muslims using violence to defend their right to practice Islam? Uh huh, no where.
"Proud Muslim claimed no knowledge about Yusef Qaradawi or Jamal Badawi yet reads the Quran only in Arabic."
I think you have an incomplete argument here. Your point is?
"he wants us to think there are no Muslim terrorists."
No, he wants us to remember that not all Muslims are terrorists, like SOME people think. I won't say who...
"You said there is no correlations between violence and religion?"
Yes...
"Proud Muslim, I'm afraid there is with Islam"
No...
"and many of your religion's Islamic authorities approve of it. They call it justice. In the name of Islam, they take the law into their own hands."
And...
"Americans, particularly public officials, are being shamed to dare even link Islam to terrorism or call it what it is."
As for the IST, I've already said I don't agree with them on everything.
Examples:
Sacking our previous Imam.
The debate that you love to harp on.
Buying (I think they bought it) two widescreen TVs (yeah, yeah, I know).
The chandelier in the men's main prayer hall (I think that was a donation, but still).
The rest of your time was wasting ranting about Qaradawi and Badawi. Notice the difference between our arguments. I talk about Islam, and you talk about supposed terrorists. In your obvious attempt to link terrorism to Islam, you still have failed to come up with any facts, proof, or evidence.
You are indeed, dense, aren't you?
Proud Muslim you have made the front page of zTruth twice now!
Thanks.
Basil, the word "Islam" means submission. A "Muslim" is one who submits. You may ask, submit to who? Islam?
zTruth, DO YOU HAVE A POINT TO MAKE?
Basil makes his point and gives his evidence (however flawed it may be).
I can disagree with Basil's arguments, but I can't even tell what your argument is because you ramble and chirp pointless posts. Maybe Basil can help you be a better writer.
zTruth:
Muslims are terrorists, Islam is a religion of terror, and "Keeping on keeping on" is a phrase used by really cool people.
Proud Muslim:
Wrong, zTruth. Islam, which means submission to God (see above post), comes from the word "salam", or peace. It makes sense if you think about it. Someone who submits himself to the will of God isn't likely to steal or kill innocents. All men sin, this is inevitable, but a Muslim who submits himself to God is better able to avoid sins such as murder, stealing, adultery, lying, offending/abusing one's neighbor, etc, etc.
zTruth:
Oh, I get it. It's unjust of someone to generalize so many people as terrorists. I realize how offensive I must have been to you, Proud Muslim. I apologize. From now on, I will not generalize or judge a person on the base of his race, gender, religion, etc., and I will think of each person as exactly that, an individual.
Also, I don't know why I brought up GWB in a discussion of Islam. Guess I was drunk or something...
But again, the point is zTruth's argument has run aground.
You have not acknowledged the two Islamic scholars presented to Oklahomans by the Islamic Society of Tulsa support Islamic terrorism against Israel.
If I belonged to a church who presented to the public two outside Christians leaders who advocated killing of others for their "just cause", I would be completely ill. I'd have leave that church. Imagine my horror if this justification was just over land.
If I belonged to a church that published a "Christianity and War" page on their "Christianity in Oklahoma" website, I'd leave that church.
You also know I've never use the phrase "Muslims are terrorists". You are the one who is, unsuccessfully, trying to pin that general label on me and you do so with stark immaturity. I have said I let Muslim's own words and actions make the link to terrorism for me. This is what I write about, at times. It's really very very sad you cannot be truthful, and, unfortunately, it proves my point exactly.
BTW, how are your school studies going? What year are you in?
You are correct when you say I have not acknowledged whether Qaradawi and Badawi are terrorists. This is for a good reason: this is a big and serious charge. I don't like making charges like that without good, solid proof.
It also comes down to the definition of a terrorist. Dictionaries say, generally, that a terrorist is some one who terrorizes others, usually for political reasons. You say these two men fit this definition, and maybe they do, but maybe they don't, and that is a serious charge that I feel uncomfortable making without good evidence.
You say you "let Muslim's own words and actions make the link to terrorism for me". It would appear, however, that you forget the words and actions of many other Muslims, true Muslims, Muslims who have served our country, Muslims who run charities, Muslims who feed the poor and adopt orphans, Muslims who risk their lives protecting our freedom. I, too, could "let" Christians' words and actions make a link to terrorism, but I would not feel justified in doing that, especially knowing many Christians who are good people and my good friends. They protect our country and help those in need. I may disagree with some aspects of their beliefs, but I can respect them and live beside them. Why can't you do the same?
My studies are going good, thanks. I'm a freshman. Starting to feel some pressure, but nothing I can't handle. Thanks for asking. :)
Both Jesus and Muhammad taught us that there is only one God, and that we should worship him and refrain from sin as best we can, and when we do sin, ask God for forgiveness, for God is all merciful.
Basil, again you bring up death. I am no lover of death, but it is inevitable. Look at the past trillions of men before you. Everyone of them died. Only God lives forever. We will all die, God will resurrect us, and He will judge us on our actions.
Islam is not full of commandments to violently punish sinners, or to force the world to worship God, or to kill those who won't. You need to give me evidence otherwise if you want to convince me.
I just want to go over what you last wrote me:
-----"Well, zTruth, I can't find where I "balk", "hedge", or "cry foul". Argue, maybe, but not "balk", "hedge", or "cry foul".
Here are some examples where I think you did after I raised a point for discussion:
-----"You do your research on You Tube? That explains a lot. -- The Ottoman Empire created Palestine? They shoveled soil into the ocean until a country formed? Hmm --Zionists were offered to share the land but they rejected because, as I understand it, they wanted Jews-only land. -- I blamed you of being narrow-minded and attacking Islam as a religion of terror without even glancing at the Quran. -- If someone attacked what I stood for, I would risk my life to protect it. -- zTruth, I don't even know where to start with you, -- There you go again, "linking" Islam to terrorism. -- The rest of your time was wasting ranting about Qaradawi and Badawi. -- Are you giving up, zTruth? -- admit that you're wrong and that terrorism can't be linked to Islam. "
-----"You are correct when you say I have not acknowledged whether Qaradawi and Badawi are terrorists..."
I have written numerous times about Badawi and Qaradawi. You twisted what I said, though. I said they support martyrdom operations in Israel but I have not called them terrorists themselves. Although others could argue any religious authority that support martyrdom is, indeed, a de-facto terrorist. But I have not done that. There are documentations, in their own words, about their support of Islamic terrorism against Israel or martyrdom, in general, although there is more documentation with Qaradawi than Badawi. But Badawi serves as a board member on several Islamic organization Qaradawi chairs. Badawi also discussed martyrdom on Islamonline. Qaradawi even alluded to his approval of martyrdom against Israel in the statement IST used that he issued after 9/11, as I recall. They used his statement two years after he was banned from entering the U.S. because of his terrorist rulings. Qaradawi use to travel to the U.S. he may have been to Oklahoma and spoke before Oklahoma Muslims but I can't recall for sure so don't hold me to that. Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, Bin Laden's mentor has been to Oklahoma. He is considered the grandfather of Al-Qaeda. There is a video of him speaking before Oklahoma Muslims in 1988 (google azzam oklahoma).
-----"...You say you "let Muslim's own words and actions make the link to terrorism for me". It would appear, however, that you forget the words and actions of many other Muslims..."
My focus is on Muslims who promote Islamism and/or terrorism.
I agree death is a passage to the Hereafter. I agree that when we die, our souls are removed from our bodies.
I disagree that God always intended for us to live forever. God's intentions do not change. We do not have power to change His Plan. God planned for Adam to eat the fruit. God planned for us to live on Earth. God knows when we will die, how we will die, and whether or not we will enter Heaven or Hell. God is the all-Knowing, the all-Seeing, and the all-Hearing.
I disagree that Jesus was crucified, which throws off your quote.
I disagree that our souls will be "instantly" judged. Nor will our souls wait in Heaven/Hell for Judgment Day. On Judgment Day, those who obeyed God will be rewarded with Heaven, and those who disobeyed God will be rewarded with Hell.
zTruth, I would hardly call that balking, hedging, or crying foul.
Rather, those examples mostly seem to be ones of sarcasm. I like to be sarcastic, and I'm sorry if it offended you.
However, they were all perfectly acceptable refutations. Youtube can hardly be considered a reliable source of information. Palestine always existed. It wasn't "created".
You really were trying to link terrorism to Islam. You really did waste your time discussing individuals when you should have been discussing something much broader: Islam.
And I could just as easily write a blog that focuses on Christians who promote Christianitism and/or terrorism, but I would feel terribly unjust to imply that Christianity leads to terrorism because of a few individuals who called themselves Christians but killed innocents, because I know that that goes against the teachings of Christianity.
Vice versa, you ought to feel terribly unjust implying that Islam leads to terrorism because of a few individuals who call themselves Muslims but kill innocents.
Am I wrong in assuming that because you do write this, that you don't feel unjust doing so, and that you must not know what Islam really says about murder?
Or maybe I'm wrong in assuming that you realize that by "focusing" on "Muslims" who "promote Islamism and/or terrorism", you imply that all terrorists are Muslims.
Or maybe I'm not wrong, and that you do know what Islam really says about murder, and that you really do mean to imply that all terrorists are Muslims in your "open minded" attempt to smear more than 1.5 billion people and their faith.
Which is it, zTruth?
I provided you the names of those Muslims leaders whom your mosque has used as Islamic authorities who have approved of martyrdom. And Muslims wonder why they have such a credibility problem with Americans. Geez.
When I go through the security check points at the airport it's because of Islamic terrorism not Christian terrorism and EVERYONE KNOWS IT.
Are you aware a member of your mosque complained in public how some of them feel hounded by the FBI when they are questioned when they fly in or out of the country, or that their mail is read, or financial transactions reviewed? It's all on video. It appears IST is on the radar of the FBI. Yet, it's always someone else' fault.
Your mosque is being sued by a former member who has accused your leadership of collecting money for questionable reasons. I hope and pray this comes out at the trial, if there's one.
I only hope that Oklahomans learn how better to question you all at interfaith forums. This all needs to get out on the table in an honest and forthright manner. This is a goal of mine.
It won't take too many non-answers for others to see right through these feeble attempts to defect those tough questions.
I couldn't have put it better, zTruth.
Since you won't answer, I'll try to guess. I think you do know what Islam says about murder, so I'll skip that one. It is quite possible that your intentions are to blame terrorism on Islam, as seen in your previous post.
zTruth, you continue to bring up Qaradawi and Badawi. I am neither one of them, I can assure you. If you want to talk to them so much, you can probably find some form of contact information on their websites. Neither of them is my leader. I do not rely on "religious" leaders.
Are you trying to ask me if I approve of martyrdom? If so, that depends on your idea of martyrdom. Martyrdom, to me, means dying (not by your own hands, that would be suicide, not martyrdom) defending a noble cause. Therefore, I believe people like Martin Luther King, Jr and Abraham Lincoln were martyrs. By that idea of martyrdom, I believe martyrs will be rewarded.
Notice that martyrdom IS NOT suicide. One will be rewarded, the other will be punished. Big difference.
"When I go through the security check points at the airport it's because of Islamic terrorism not Christian terrorism and EVERYONE KNOWS IT."
9/11 was a terrorist attack. The suspects, al-Qaeda, or however you spell it, justified it with Islam. Therefore, you call it Islamic terrorism. I find that an oxymoron. Islam does not allow terrorism or the killing of innocents. If you want to write blogs about terrorism in the Middle East, be my guest. But you obviously have confused terrorism with the teachings of Islam. That is what I'm trying to clarify here.
"I only hope that Oklahomans learn how better to question you all at interfaith forums. This all needs to get out on the table in an honest and forthright manner. This is a goal of mine."
If you want to learn about Islam, open the Quran. If you want to learn about terrorism, read the news. I had posted a list of news articles regarding violence in an earlier post. Look at them again. How many of them have the word "Islam", "Muslim", or "Quran" in it? Zip. Zero. None. Zilch.
It wasn't me who ruled in fatwas that killing of oneself in order to kill others is acceptable in Islam. It wasn't me who selected this leader's statement to use after 9/11. It was the Islamic Society of Tulsa that did this.
Yet, all you do is try to bring all back to me. Do you think others are that stupid?
The people you listed who committed crimes do not invoke their religion as the reason they did what they did. But Islamic terrorists invoke Islam as their reason.
Nor did I, and I'm Muslim. Again, I do not rely on "religious leaders".
"Islamic terrorists invoke Islam as their reason."
Could you be more specific? What exact verses from the Quran do they quote that justify their actions? Because the Quran is what Muslims believe in, and the Quran denounces the killing of innocents:
"Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (17:33)" Aka, the 6th commandment, do not kill unjustly.
According to the Islamic Society of Tulsa and Greater Oklahoma City "War & fighting in Islam" webpage:
Minor Jihad: "God allowed the Muslims to fight in their own defense to repel military aggression, and to fight oppression, brutality, and injustice against themselves or on behalf of any group with whom there exists a treaty of mutual defense.
THE HOLY QUR'AN (22:39-40)
Permission is given (to fight) to those who have been fought against, because they are wronged and oppressed; and indeed, God is most able to give them victory; (they are) those who have been unjustly expelled from their homes without right, for no reason except that they say, "Our Lord is God."
Your mosque, appears to be telling its followers it's acceptable to fight for Islam outside of the laws in our country.
I read that story too, Tim. I also read last year! :) Yet it strikes me as ironic every time I read it. Violent monks? Weird.
It seems to me that it is about self defense:
"God allowed the Muslims to fight IN THEIR OWN DEFENSE to repel military aggression, and to fight oppression, brutality, and injustice against themselves or on behalf of any group with whom there exists a treaty of mutual defense."
Maybe I'm missing something?
Sorry, but IST got that one right.
And again, no matter what IST says, it doesn't override the Quran, which I've already explained.
"God allowed the Muslims to fight IN THEIR OWN DEFENSE to repel military aggression,"
Isn't this taking the law into your own hands against a military?
I also find it appalling there is even a page on War and Fighting in Islam.
On this page it states:
Jihad: Fighting to establish justice, which is a supreme goal (in Islam).
Is this self defense?
Proud Muslim 11/11/2008 4:06:44 PM
* Linguistic meaning of Jihad in Arabic:
o Striving - Struggling (or to exert oneself in order to be "right with God")
* Islamic meaning:
o A. Non-violent struggling within oneself for a life of virtue.
o B. Fighting to establish justice, which is a supreme goal.
* Rules of Fighting In Islam as Commanded by Prophet Mohamed (PBUH):
o - Never Kill Innocent People
o - Never Injure Prisoners of War
o - Never Kill Animals
o - Never Destroy Crops or Infrastructures
o - Never Mutilate Bodies of Enemies dead or alive
o - All Prisoners Should be Given Fair Treatment
o - Women & Children Should be Protected From Harm
o - Always Bury the Dead With Respect
(Note: 1,400 Years BEFORE Geneva Convention)
No, fighting against the persecution and oppression of others isn't directly self-defense, but I see nothing wrong with it. That's what we did during the Holocaust, and many other places in history.
What is wrong with it? Well, for one it could encourage someone to fight outside the boundaries of the laws of our country or state or city which supersede any and all religious texts.
And who determines what is justice?
To me, this web-page does not present your religion or the major Islamic societies in Oklahoma in a good light.
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community. Justice is a no-brainer. The Holocaust, for example, was wrong. No doubt about it. That's why the US stood up and fought.
In our country, justice is determined by a court of law not by individuals unless your home is being broken into and you fear for your life then you have the right to protect yourself. Even then your actions will be reviewed and a determination made.
No where in our laws would anyone have a right to defend their religion physically, per se. This is a good thing for all of us. Our laws supersede any religious teaching of fighting or violence so it puts us all under this protective umbrella equally. If you were physically stopped from entering your mosque, which is unlikely, just call the police and they would help you. There's no need to take matters into your own hand because then you would probably be arrested and your actions reviewed by a court of law. Telling me you would do this is troubling.
Should any religion preach to its followers to use fighting or violence that are outside the law? Absolutely not.
The U.S. and it allies stood up and fought against the injustices of Hitler not because of any religious doctrine but because it was for the common good of all people, regardless of their religious beliefs.
Speaking of the Holocaust, didn't Hitler partner with the Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Al Husseini, against the Jews?
google: Hitler and Mufti of jerusalem
Proud Muslim 11/12/2008 8:26:40 AM
I'm afraid you still don't understand our second amendment. If you attacked me, not "stopped me", but attacked me, then I have every right to defend my self. That is 100% within the law.
"The U.S. and it allies stood up and fought against the injustices of Hitler not because of any religious doctrine but because it was for the common good of all people, regardless of their religious beliefs."
Exactly my point. God is telling us to defend any one who is being oppressed or persecuted, or in other words, for justice. I understand the US didn't do this for religious reasons, but God tells us to fight for justice because that is the right thing to do, not because we call ourselves Muslims.
This amendment states you have a right to bear arms. But that doesn't give you a blanket right to carry a gun or a weapon or use it. It's against the law to carry a weapon without the proper permit and so on.
Of course, you need a permit to own and use a gun. That's the law, plain and simple.
This amendment states you have a right to bear arms But that doesn't give you a blanket right to carry a gun or a weapon or use it. It's against the law to carry a weapon without the proper permit and so on.
o - Never Kill Innocent People
o - Never Injure Prisoners of War
o - Never Kill Animals
o - Never Destroy Crops or Infrastructures
o - Never Mutilate Bodies of Enemies dead or alive
o - All Prisoners Should be Given Fair Treatment
o - Women & Children Should be Protected From Harm
o - Always Bury the Dead With Respect
All within the law.
To tell us Islam is such a perfect religion when we can clearly see every day how rigid Islam can and does treat people in those Islamic countries nixes all those glowing words. None of this speaks well for Islam.
Islam isn't practiced in one Islamic country the way it is conveyed to us here in America.
Nor have I seen any effort by any group of Islamic leaders in America to put pressure on Islamic leaders overseas to give freedom of religion to their own people. Until this is done, you all will never succeed with the standard "Islam is only peace" rhertoric.
As I said before, Islam isn't practiced in one Islamic country the way it is portrayed to us in America. We simply cannot believe your words when actions of Islamic countries contradict everything you or others say.
Earlier, we reviewed some of the verses in the Quran where fighting is promoted. The Quran is a book for war, fighting, spiritualness, politics, rule and so on. You did not deny this. The Islamic societies of Tulsa and OKC have a page on War and Fighting in Islam, for crying-out-loud - yet you want proof.
The supreme goal of Islam is to "fight" for justice. Are there not verses in the Quran that state this must be done till Islam rules over others?
Governing most all Middle East countries is the Quran, which is the ruling authority as stated in the constitutions or laws. This has caused tremendous hardships on people which denies its people freedom or religion, freedom of speech, freedom of choice.
Christian nations have taken actions that contradict everything the Bible says, but I do not blame Christianity as a religion for these actions as you insist on doing with Islam.
The verses in the Quran promote fighting on the following conditions:
You are fighting in self defense.
You are fighting against oppression of others.
You do not kill innocents.
You do not harm prisoners of war.
Etc, etc.
The Quran does not promote fighting just for the existence of violence. That thought is absurd and unfounded.
The supreme goal of Islam is to worship God as one. And no, there are no verses that one must fight for justice until "Islam rules over others". Islam is a religion and a way of life, not a nation or a group of people.
"This has caused tremendous hardships on people which denies its people freedom or religion, freedom of speech, freedom of choice."
And that is wrong for any nation, Muslim or Christian or Jewish, and yet almost every country is guilty of this. The Middle East is no exception, and fortunately with time, this will end.
Not exactly. Muslims do not fight wars "for" God. In the name of God, yes, as we do everything else. For the cause of God, yes, I wouldn't do anything that conflicted with Islam, for that would be sinful.
Let me help you to understand the Hadith. I'll take it apart line by line.
"Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah."
Explained above.
"Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah."
In other words, don't fight with other Muslims. This line does not mean fight against non-Muslims just because they are non-Muslims. There should be no Muslims oppressing another Muslim, hence, fight against non-Muslims because they are oppressors. As stated in the Quran and other Hadiths, one should never kill an innocent person, and one should only fight in self defense or against oppressors.
"Make a holy war"
After searching for the Arabic text, I found that the word "ghozwe" or "war", lacks the adjective "quddus", or "holy".
Hence the proper translation reads "Wage war". Again, this refers to times of war against oppressors, and even then, the rules of war (see following line and above explanation) apply.
"do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children."
No explanation needed.
"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm."
It appears "ghissal" is translated as "courses of action" rather than "qualities" or "characteristics". Not sure what that means, but from the remainder of the line, it sounds like three kinds of compromises.
"If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands."
The Jizya is a tax on non-Muslims living in the Islamic Caliphate. Basically, it was 2.5% of the wealth. Women, children, the elderly, and the poor were exempt. In return, the non-Muslims did not have to fight in war and were promised protection.
The next Hadith is badly translated.
For example, here, "yuharama" is translated as "sacred" instead of "forbidden". Of course, this throws off the translation of everything before it. Also, "faqad haramto", which means "had deprived", is completely left out.
Finally, the last Hadith:
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id Khudri that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said (to him): Abu Sa'id, whoever cheerfully accepts Allah as his Lord, Islam as his religion and Mubammad as his Apostle is necessarily entitled to enter Paradise. He (Abu Sa'id) wondered at it and said: Messenger of Allah, repeat it for me. He (the Messenger of Allah) did that"
So far so good...
"and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah! Sahih Muslim Book 020, Number 4645:"
One who does not understand the real meaning of "jihad" would be confused. But in reality, "jihad" means to struggle. There are a number of ways to struggle "in the way of Allah". Paying charity, praying, and fighting oppression are all examples of "jihad". So every time you struggle for a noble cause, you are performing "jihad in the way of Allah".
Yet, as we watch these videos or read these newsletters, American Muslim leaders keep telling us Islam is only a peaceful religion that values all life.
The hadiths were from the University of Southern California website which is maintained by the Muslim Student Association.
I think two of these hadiths were written during a time of Islamic conquests and/or fighting. And according to USC MSA were written in part "to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non-Muslim world"!
Since you claim to know so much about Islam and present yourself as an expert, although you are barely past childhood, I think, would you please write them a letter and tell them how they have the translation and explanation all wrong. Send me a copy and I will gladly post it on my website. I'll post their reply and corrections since they will probably see that you are, indeed, a major Islamic expert.
There is an Islamic website I mentioned before that has been certified by two Islamic experts and'or book publishers as to the accuracy of their online Quran and Hadiths. In the Hadiths, we find the use of the words "Holy War".
So write them, too while you're at it.
Maybe together, we can get all these mispreceptions corrected by your fellow Muslims. You write them as an Islamic expert and I'll help you get the word out.
Proud Muslim 11/15/2008 12:00:10 PM
"They are encouraged to see death as a really good way to die as a Muslim."
Maybe reading this sentence as it stands alone will show you how hollow it is. Death is the only way to die. You can't die by life.
Of course, if children are being taught to kill themselves, that is wrong, though I have no evidence of this happening.
I am hardly an expert. The real experts spend years and years of studying Quran and Hadith. Most of them have the Quran memorized by a young age. As a matter of fact, memorizing the Quran, or being a "Hafith", is a requirement to become a Muslim scholar.
I would be more than willing to write letters or e-mail these two sites, if you'd give me the links. I suspect that many of these Hadiths are copied and pasted without regard to the actual translation. However, I won't be writing anyone as an Islamic expert.
If you would really like to help correct these misconceptions, you can simply stop blaming Islam for terrorism in the Middle East.
There's nothing wrong with reporting crimes (though I would think it gets depressing after a while). However, when you blame these crimes (which go against the Quran and Hadith) on Islam without mentioning what Islam actually says, that is wrong. There are many crimes committed by Christians, for example, but everyone knows that Christianity teaches against such actions and is not to blame. Likewise, there are many crimes committed by Muslims, but you should know that Islam teaches against such actions and is not to blame.
Anytime you over eat, over sleep, or over do anything - there are consequences. Usually negative ones. If you only live your life through a religious book no matter which one it is - it's problematic. Too much of anything is not healthy.
You said if I really wanted to help correct misconceptions you pointed out in the hadiths I sued, I could simply stop blaming Islam for terrorism in the Middle East.
Do you realize how completely absurd that sounds?
Muslims are the ones who use terrorism as a means to an end, not me. I just publicize it. You know this and others knows this, as well.
A high-ranking Islamic leader your mosque referenced after 9/11 has approved of martyrdom against Israel. This man was banned from entering the U.S. for his support of terrorism two years before his statement was used. Yusef Qaradawi has issued fatwas that allow Muslims to blow themselves up in order to kill Israelis, including women and children over a land dispute for over twenty years now. Land, that I might add, that is referenced in the Bible and the Quran specifically for Israel. Palestine did not exist when these books were written. You said so yourself.
You said you are not an Islamic authority so you really are not qualified to speak so convincingly about Islam, as you do. Neither am I, that's why I use Islamic leaders as reference to make my point. Leaders who are regarded as experts in the Islamic world. I merely publicize what they say and do when it affects America.
Now, if the Islamic Society of Tulsa were to make a public statement condemning specifically the fatwas of martyrdom by Yusef Qaradawi, then I would gladly put this on my website. However, I believe some of the Muslim leaders there could be aligned with or support the Muslim Brotherhood. They used Qaradawi's statement after 9/11, they invited a known Muslim Brotherhood leader to speak to all Oklahomans for them as their expert on the Quran this year and last year they aligned themselves with CAIR, an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America.
Furthermore, the director of IST's Peace Academy is the former chairman of the board of directors of the Muslim American Society, according to a MAS website. This organization is an overt arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, according to court documents and investigative research.
I believe you could be uninformed about the implications of a Muslim Brotherhood alignment, if indeed there is one. This takes mere spiritual Islam to a whole new realm called Islamism. For it is the Muslim Brotherhood that seeks to establish a global caliphate and Islamic supremacy. This possible alignment could be why one of IST's spokeswoman complained in public about FBI oversight that was recorded on video. All the while she spoke, she implied they are merely the victims of our cruel government.
If you want to pursue the problems you say are with the hadiths I used go to USC MSA Compedium of Muslim Text and Guidedways dot com (see their "about" page for the certificates).
Fighting for justice is A supreme goal, not THE supreme goal.
"If you only live your life through a religious book no matter which one it is - it's problematic. Too much of anything is not healthy."
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
If you mean that one should live by a religious book some of the time and live contrary to that book the rest of the time, I disagree. That is not the point of religion.
If you mean that one should live by the teachings of his religion, but also have a secular life that does not contradict his religion, then I agree. Everyone should do this.
"Muslims are the ones who use terrorism as a means to an end"
This is what I'm talking about. Let's try to think this through logically.
1) I am Muslim
2) I am not a terrorist
3) Your statement is false
A more accurate statement would be
"Some people use terrorism as a means to an end. They may be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, male, female, etc., etc."
When you try to blame all terrorism on Islam and ignore what Islam IS and SAYS, then you pursue a faulty argument. Terrorism knows no religious bounds, and no religion I know of teaches terrorism. Hence, terrorism is independent of religion. This applies to Islam.
"Yusef Qaradawi has issued fatwas that allow Muslims to blow themselves up in order to kill Israelis"
I do not know if this is true, but assuming it is, then this man is wrong. Islam forbids suicide. There is no excuse for it.
"Land, that I might add, that is referenced in the Bible and the Quran specifically for Israel. Palestine did not exist when these books were written. You said so yourself."
Let me make myself clear.
Israel = Palestine
Some call it Israel, some call it Palestine. But it's all the same area, and it's existed since the beginning of time. Like I said, the Ottoman Empire didn't shovel soil into the ocean until Palestine was formed. Israel does not mean "land of Jews", nor does Palestine mean "land of Muslims". Palestine/Israel is historically and culturally known as a land for all three of the monotheistic faiths: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Again, this is a land-ownership issue, not a religious one.
I may not be an Islamic expert or scholar, but I am a Muslim, and I know what my faith teaches much better than you do, which is obvious looking at our discussion, and a degree in theology is not necessary for common sense. I have told you that Islam teaches peace when it can be attained and to fight in self-defense and against oppressors when we must. This is clearly stated in the Quran.
However, you are determined not to believe me. You quote certain "Islamic leaders" who make "fatwas that allow Muslims to blow themselves up in order to kill".
But I quote the greatest Islamic leader of all, God, whose words can be found in the Quran. You may not believe that these are His words, and that's okay. But I think you do believe that I believe that these are God's words, and that is what is important.
God says to not kill innocents. I don't care, then, if the greatest human "Islamic scholar" makes hundreds of fatwas saying it is okay to kill innocents. God is my number one Islamic expert, and it is His teachings that I follow.
Maybe you want to criticize terrorism. That is fine, and I would support that.
But what you are doing is blaming all terrorism on Islam. That is wrong on so many levels, including morally and logically.
In English, He is God.
In Arabic, He is Allah.
In Hebrew, He is Elohim (I think that's in Aramaic-Hebrew).
No, I don't believe Jesus died on the cross, or that he was killed. I believe that God sent him to deliver the message of monotheism and saved him by lifting him to heaven. Many Muslims believe he is coming back. I do not.
The Qur'an:
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (3:151)
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)
Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. (8:59-60)
And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will. And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things. (33:25-27)
It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)! (59:2)
That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: And if any one resists Allah, verily, Allah is severe in punishment. (59:4)
Of a truth ye are stronger (than they) because of the terror in their hearts, (sent) by Allah. This is because they are men devoid of understanding. (59:13)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror, and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)
Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1062, 1063, 1066, 1067)
Source: Compendium of Muslim Texts USC/MSA
003.151
YUSUFALI: Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
PICKTHAL: We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
This is quite clear. God is warning of the punishment of Hell, not ordering terrorism.
008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
008.013
YUSUFALI: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL: That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
This Surah was revealed during the battle of Badr, in which the Muslims, after having left Mecca and arrived in Medina, heard of an army of Meccans three times their size. God helped the Muslims by sending an army of angels, same as He helped Yusuf (Joseph) when he sent the two inmates and Pharouh their dreams, or when He split the river for Musa (Moses), and when He helped David defeat Goliath with a mere stone. God is not commanding terrorism.
008.059
YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
PICKTHAL: And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
SHAKIR: And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.
008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Here, God is commanding the Muslims to prepare for the up coming war. The next verse reads:
008.061
YUSUFALI: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One
PICKTHAL: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
Obviously, God is not ordering terrorism.
033.025
YUSUFALI: And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will.
PICKTHAL: And Allah repulsed the disbelievers in their wrath; they gained no good. Allah averted their attack from the believers. Allah is ever Strong, Mighty.
SHAKIR: And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.
033.026
YUSUFALI: And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
PICKTHAL: And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
SHAKIR: And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
033.027
YUSUFALI: And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.
PICKTHAL: And He caused you to inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and land ye have not trodden. Allah is ever Able to do all things.
SHAKIR: And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
These verses were revealed after the Battle of Uhud. In verse 25, God tells us how He helped the Muslims defeat their oppressors. In verse 26, God tells us how the Tribe of Qurayzah broke a treaty with the Muslims, who were defending them and the rest of Madinah, and helped the invaders. In verse 27, God gives the Muslims permission to take their land.
No where does God command terrorism.
059.002
YUSUFALI: It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture who disbelieved to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!
SHAKIR: He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!
059.003
YUSUFALI: And had it not been that Allah had decreed banishment for them, He would certainly have punished them in this world: And in the Hereafter they shall (certainly) have the Punishment of the Fire.
PICKTHAL: And if Allah had not decre
059.004
YUSUFALI: That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.
PICKTHAL: That is because they were opposed to Allah and His messenger; and whoso is opposed to Allah, (for him) verily Allah is stern in reprisal.
SHAKIR: That is because they acted in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, and whoever acts in opposition to Allah, then surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil).
Here, God is giving the order to banish the tribe of Al-Nadir, who plotted to kill Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings be upon him) during the battle of Uhud against the Meccans. He then continues and says that they will be punished on Judgement Day for their actions.
No mention of terrorism.
059.013
YUSUFALI: Of a truth ye are stronger (than they) because of the terror in their hearts, (sent) by Allah. This is because they are men devoid of understanding.
PICKTHAL: Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah. That is because they are a folk who understand not.
SHAKIR: You are certainly greater in being feared in their hearts than Allah; that is because they are a people who do not understand
As you can see, Yusuf Ali's translation isn't very good. Pickthal's and Shakir's translations make it clear that God is telling us that the tribes that betrayed the Muslims fear the Muslims more than they fear God.
Again, zero on terrorism.
The translation I have of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220 reads
"It was related that Abu Huraira said that the Messenger of God said: 'I have been sent with the most concise expressions having the greatest meanings, and I have been made victorious be casting terror, and while I slept I was given the keys of the treasures of the world in my hand.' Abu Huraira also said: 'The Messenger of God has departed this world and now you are gaining those treasures.'"
I can't find the Arabic text for Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1062, but it it's probably like the other Hadith and has a different translation.
I can't even imagine how hard it must be for the citizens of Islamic countries to be forced to live in such a rigid environment. They have no religious choices or freedom. They could never criticize Islam.
It's troubling that Islamic leaders in America do nothing to encourage freedom for their fellow Muslims. In America they tell us one version of Islam that is not practiced anywhere in the Islamic world. Because of this, they have zero credibility with me and many others.
The Quran claims to be the final religion. Most of the world disagrees.
My deep Christian faith comforts me beyond what mere words can describe. Jesus is the path to GOD. I have personally experienced the profound love of GOD beyond what most experience. At the time I received this gift, I felt so unworthy because I am full of faults - just an ordinary person. I was so overwhelmed by this gift I cried for two weeks or so because I was truly not worthy of receiving the gift I did. I won't go into what I witnessed because most would not understand or believe me but I know there is a GOD beyond any doubt. I also know Jesus is the path to him.
Jesus said, “I am the way...no one comes to the Father except
through me” (John 14:6).
Again, non-Muslims in a Muslim country should have religious freedom. Any ruler who does not grant this is disobeying God.
I am not sure what "version" of Islam you are referring to, but I assume you are referring to Islam as a peaceful religion, as it ought to be. Fact is, zTruth, that this "version" of Islam is practiced around the globe. You know it is, you've said so yourself.
Any "bad version" of Islam is not Islam at all.
God says in the Quran that Muhammed was His final messenger. Whether or not you believe it is your opinion. As a Muslim, I believe it. We are all entitled to our opinions. We are not entitled to the spreading of lies.
I'm glad you find joy in your religion.
"Jesus said, “I am the way...no one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6)."
I merely expressed to you what being a Christian is to me - one time and one time only. I have found that Muslims like to quote from the Quran to others when they can. This is a book that may be offensive to Christians, since it states it blasphemy to call Jesus the son of God.
Give me one example of a country that practices Islam the way you tell me it is practiced?
Speaking of spreading of lies. Why is Islam the only religion I am aware that allows its followers to lie in certain circumstances, like to outsmart its enemy or bring peace to people or between husband and wife?
I beg to differ. No Muslim I know of walks around reciting the translation of the Quran. All through our discussion, I only brought up a verse when it was in question.
There are a number of countries where many Muslims practice Islam the proper way, one being the Unites States of America. As a matter of fact, it can be said that in every country, the majority of Muslims there are peacefully living their lives and worshiping God.
Can you quote the exact verses or Hadiths that permit lying in certain situations?
Hadiths that allow lying following the guidance by Islamic prophet Mohammad:
Sahih Muslim/Hadith Book 032, Number 6303: ..."Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)".
Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857: Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:
"That she heard Allah's Apostle (Mohammad) saying, He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar".
Sahih al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle"?
Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?; The Prophet said, Yes; Muhammad bin Maslama said, Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). The Prophet said, "You may say it"
The first hadith I used speaks of three instances where lying is acceptable in Islam but, Muslims should be truthful as the following hadiths you listed show. But it doesn't override the first hadith where lying is allowed.
All the hadiths are from the University of Southern California Muslim Student Association Compendium of Muslim Text. You doubt the authenticity of the other two hadiths I used which were from Sahih al-Bukhari.
Here is what they said about Sahih al-Bukhari :
Bukhari's collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).
Bukhari (full name Abu Abdullah Muhammad bin Ismail bin Ibrahim bin al-Mughira al-Ja'fai) was born in 194 A.H. and died in 256 A.H. His collection of hadith is considered second to none. He spent sixteen years compiling it, and ended up with 2,602 hadith (9,082 with repetition). His criteria for acceptance into the collection were amongst the most stringent of all the scholars of ahadith.
As for these Hadiths, I doubt they are authentic, especially that last one.
The first one, for example, is immediately followed by: Number 6306
'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that Muhammad (may peace be upon him) said: Should I inform you that slandering, that is in fact a tale-carrying which creates dissension amongst people, (and) he (further) said: The person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie tells a lie until lie is recorded as a liar.
Number 6307: 'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar.
Number 6308; 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Telling of truth is a virtue and virtue leads to Paradise and the servant who endeavours to tell the truth is recorded as truthful, and lie is obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the servant who endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar. Ibn Abu Shaiba reported this from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him).
Number 6309: 'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is obligatory for you to tell the truth, for truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise, and the man who continues to speak the truth and endeavours to tell the truth is eventually recorded as truthful with Allah, and beware of telling of a lie for telling of a lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the person who keeps telling lies and endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar with Allah.
"it doesn't override the first hadith where lying is allowed"
The first Hadith has doubtful authenticity, so it doesn't hold a candle to the others.
As far as what the website says about Sahih al-Bukhari, they are right. It is the most authentic source of Hadith we have. But it is no Quran, meaning who knows what changes it may have undergone over time. I'm not saying it's no longer viable. I'm saying there may be Hadiths that have been inserted for this very reason, for an excuse to sin.
The easiest way to tell if a Hadith is not authentic is to see if it contradicts the Quran, which has been preserved. This Hadith fails the test, and therefore is probably not authentic.
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
Narrated 'Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him.
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:
That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
-----
But you will say this is probably not authentic, either, even though it is from a highly regarded Hadith. So then we are to conclude, by your words, that the USC Muslim Student Association is putting out false hadiths. If so, Muslim leaders in America should be so outraged because this is a major source for the Quran and Hadiths online in America. They need to put a stop to this horrible misrepresentation of your prophet words and deeds.
The problem is, nothing will be done because this is an authentic hadith.
The book "The spirit of Islam," by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah stated: "Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."
Tabbarah's book is in the catologue of the King Saud University Library in Saudi Arabia, the birth place of Islam.
And from Abdullah Al Araby: The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28
An example of Islamic deception is that Muslim activists always quote the passages of the Quran from the early part of Mohammed's ministry while living in Mecca. These texts are peaceful and exemplify tolerance towards those that are not followers of Islam. All the while, they are fully aware that most of these passages were abrogated (cancelled and replaced) by pas
All the while, they are fully aware that most of these passages were abrogated (cancelled and replaced) by passages that came after he migrated to Medina. The replacement verses reflect prejudice, intolerance, and endorse violence upon unbelievers
In conclusion, it is imperative to understand, that Muslim leaders can use this loop-hole in their religion, to absolve them from any permanent commitment. It is also important to know that what Muslim activists say to spread Islam may not always be the whole truth. When dealing with Muslims, what they say is not the issue. The real issue is, what they actually mean in their hearts.
Those Hadiths are probably not authentic.
Sahih Al-Bukhari is a highly regarded source of Hadiths.
However, Sahih Al-Bukhari yesterday may not be Sahih Al-Bukhari today. Those "Hadiths" that contradict the Quran are not authentic. The Prophet wouldn't say something that conflicted with God's words.
You bring up the verse:
"'Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.' Surah 3: 28"
Here, God is telling us that if lying will keep you alive, do it, but only when your life is at stake, and that you must always remember God.
When the Pharouh of Egypt asked Abraham who the woman with him was, he could have said the truth and said "My wife", but he would have been killed, and all the contributions he made to monotheism as we know it would have been lost. Instead, he lied and said "My sister".
Does this make Abraham an evil man? No.
If a Muslim lies when his life is not at stake, as in the example you gave, he would be sinning heinously, and he ought to know it.
As for verses that "reflect prejudice, intolerance, and endorse violence upon unbelievers", you're going to have to give me specific verses that do so. You won't find them, because they're not there.
Neither country you listed practice Islam the way Islamic leaders teach us about Islam. Earlier, on the 12th of October I listed an excerpt from a religious freedom report from our state department which I will add just a small segment here:
On April 24, 2007, the Court of Administrative Justice ruled that the Interior Ministry was not obligated to recognize conversion to Christianity by Christian-born converts to Islam. The Court ruled that such recognition would violate the prohibition against apostasy under Islamic Shari'a and constitute a "manipulation of Islam and Muslims."
Additionally, Egypt has been struggling for years against the Muslim Brotherhood from seizing power there and turning Egypt into an Islamic state.
In Turkey from the same 2007 religious freedom report:
"...99 percent of the population is Muslim. There were reports of societal abuses and discrimination based on religious belief or practice. Violent attacks and threats against non-Muslims during the reporting period created an atmosphere of pressure and diminished freedom for some non-Muslim communities. Although proselytizing is legal in the country, some Muslims, Christians, and Baha'is faced a few restrictions and occasional harassment for alleged proselytizing or unauthorized meetings.
...Additionally, persons wishing to convert from Islam to another religion sometimes experienced social harassment and violence from relatives and neighbors.
...Religious minorities report difficulties opening, maintaining, and operating houses of worship. Under the law, religious services may take place only in designated places of worship. Municipal codes mandate that only the Government can designate a place of worship, and if a religion has no legal standing in the country, it may not be eligible for a designated site. Non-Muslim religious services, especially for religious groups that do not own property recognized by the GDF, often take place on diplomatic property or in private apartments. Police occasionally bar Christians from holding services in private apartments, and prosecutors have opened cases against Christians for holding unauthorized gatherings
.
...There are legal restrictions against insulting any religion recognized by the Government
There's more I could add about Egypt and Turkey but for the sake of space, I kept it short.
I don't think there is one Islamic country that practices Islam the way we are told about it here.
I could say "The sky is orange."
As a matter of fact, I will.
The sky is orange.
There it is, in writing. Black and white. You have to believe it now, right?
Or maybe common sense is telling you that there's something wrong with that.
Don't swallow everything you read just because someone else typed/wrote it. And that applies to my whole argument. Criticize what I type (which you've been doing an okay job). Use your intellect. Look at what you KNOW to be true, and compare it to what I'm saying. I say Islam teaches peace, and sure enough, that can be found in the Quran and Hadith. Those who call themselves Muslims and do not follow this are not obeying what Islam really teaches.
As for your Egypt and Turkey argument, it doesn't prove a thing. I have family in Egypt, and I can assure you they are practicing Islam properly. So there ARE Muslims in Egypt practicing Islam as it should be practiced. And where there's one, there are probably others.
I think as Americans, we know that the government doesn't always represent the majority. And we're a democracy. What does that tell you about a dictatorship?
Seriously, how could America's Islamic leaders stand for their beloved prophet to be so misrepresented on an American ISLAMIC website at a university?
Your rebuttal is extremely weak.
The U.S. State Dept. religious freedom report which I quoted does matter. It's not my arguement, as you said, rather it is our government's review of how the Middle East treats its citizens.
The governments in Islamic countries generally only favor Islam whether by their constitution, or laws or practices. This is what Sharia is all about, isn't it?
For me, and others, it's not the dictatorship so much but the practice of Islamic law.
So far, not one Muslim has been able to provide me a single Islamic country that practices Islam as it is portrayed to us. Of course, they may be citizens within the country who practice Islam in a peaceful manner but if they wanted to change their religion - could they do so easily and without fear? Can Christians thrive theere and expand their religion? They are forbidden from criticizing Islam in any manner.
No religion should be above criticism.
Your own Imam, who is from Egypt said the laws are there to protect Islam. Over all other religions, I might add.
Therefore, what American Islamic leaders tells us about Islam is seriously problematic because they expect us to believe a version which doesn't match the version for those who live in these countries, esp. the country where Islam was born, Saudi Arabia.
Furthermore, Islamic leaders in America do nothing to encourage these Islamic countries to practice what the "real Islam" is all about. Peace, Love, Freedom.
Instead, they and you blame the dictators rather than Sharia law.
Again, I suspect that many Hadiths are copied and pasted without regard to the Hadith. Not many people take the time to read all those thousands of Hadith.
The fact is, the Quran forbids lying. The Quran has greater priority over Hadiths. This doesn't mean that Hadiths aren't important. It means that if there's a Hadith that conflicts with the Quran, it is not authentic.
I never said the report didn't matter. It does.
But who are you going to blame for these wrongs?
Islam? As I've said before, Islam doesn't permit things like that.
Some "bad version" of Islam? A "bad version" of Islam is not Islam at all. Not to mention, it is a "version" practiced by the minority, if any one. Are you going to blame the majority for actions of the minority, who believe in a different "version" of Islam? Do people blame Christians for crimes committed by the KKK?
My suspicion is that many Muslims have given you a long list of Muslim countries where Islam is practiced peacefully. However, you want to blame peaceful Muslims, the majority, for deeds they did not commit. No wonder, then, that you think "not one Muslim has been able to provide me a single Islamic country that practices Islam as it is portrayed to us". If I had that kind of attitude, and blamed Christians for deeds committed by the KKK and other "Christian" hate groups, I too would see all Christian nations as nations of terror.
But I know better.
I am no expert in Sharia law, or when it is to be applied and where. You will have to show me the specific laws that allow these crimes, and what Quran verses or authentic Hadiths (Hadiths that don't contradict the Quran) are used to support this.
You cannot go around and tell us about the peace and love and freedom of Islam when in reality people are forced by the constitutions, laws and practices to remain a Muslim in Islamic countries. This is because of ISLAMIC LAW. And ISLAMIC LAW is derived from what, Proud Muslim? That's right, the Quran and Sunnah.
The birthplace of Islam, Saudia Arabia, tells most of us all we need to know about Islam. This country is one of the worst abusers of people in the world - all based on a strict interpretation of the Quran. Or it is an authentic interpretation?
When I bring to your attention the issue of lying, you say the hadiths are wrong or whatever. Most all Islamic scholars accepts these hadiths as authentic.
Have you heard of Dr. Zuhdi Jasser? He is a devote spiritual Muslim who is very much against Islamism. He is a physician and has the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. He is a Muslim I very much admire.
IST would have been much better off, in my eyes, had they chosen to partner with his organization rather than CAIR, which is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America. Proud Muslim 11/22/2008 10:53:40 AM
As for the name of one Islamic country that practices Islam properly, I gave it to you. Egypt, for example. There are many Muslims there practicing Islam peacefully, and you acknowledged their presence. But your definition of a true Islamic country isn't one where Muslims are peacefully practicing Islam, it's one where the government peacefully practices Islam. Again, Americans know from experience that the government doesn't always represent the majority.
You say the law of these countries is Islamic law. In reality, it is a nonIslamic law. The Quran and Hadith are the teachings of Islam, and no where do they support harassment of nonMuslims.
I still think those Hadiths are not authentic. I'm not sure how many scholars think it is, but I know that any Hadith that contradicts the Quran could not be authentic.
No, I have never heard of Dr. Zuhdi Jasser.
Then again, I never heard of Jamal Badawi or Yusuf Qaradawi, either.
IST would have been much better off, in my eyes, had they not decided on a debate. That's not what the Muslim society needs right now. Theological debates are fine, but you've got to have good timing. There is a strong bias against Muslims right now (see your website), and Muslims need to show America that they are Americans too.
God bless America.
I have already done this with authentic hadiths. You haven't been able to prove otherwise to me.
In the Quran:
"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Surah 16: 106
Meaning: The Holy Prophet and his companions have been comforted and told about the attitude they should adopt in the face of antagonism and persecution by the disbelievers.
So Sharia law is not Islamic law? Forgive me, while I roll on the floor laughing.
Give me just a moment...
Your reflection of the verse is so far off it's unbelievable. Nowhere is God saying "hate non-Muslims and harass them". God is saying they will face "a dreadful Penalty" - Hell.
When you have quite finished rolling on the floor, could you specify exactly what laws of Sharia allow these actions, and where Islam allows this? Only laws that correspond to the teachings of Islam can be called "Islamic" laws. If the Sharia law truly allows this (I need to see evidence of this), then it would not be considered Islamic. Roll on the floor all you like. This is common sense. zTruth 11/23/2008 9:15:38 AM
So far, I haven't found one Islamic expert/scholar that states these are not authentic but I welcome you providing me one.
According to Al-Kawthar Academy in London, Saheeh al-Bukhari is widely regarded as being the most authentic book after the Book of Allah. They give weekly lessons on it that you may find useful. I think you can listen to lectures online.
It isn't my reflection of the Quranic verse/chapter I used in my last comment. In this case, it is the chapter introduction by Maulana Maududi (1903-1979) which is used by the Muslim Student Associations at USC's Compendium of Muslim Text where I got the historical interpretation.
His writings are also used by YoungMuslims website in Canada as their introduction to the chapters of the Quran (google youngmuslims)
"...Lawful to you are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exceptions). But shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false, be true in faith to God..." Surah Hajj (22), Verses 30,31
If God tells us to shun lies, and if the Prophet Muhammad is His messenger (which God tells us is so), then Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, would not have told us to lie.
There it is, the greatest Islamic expert of all time, telling you that these Hadiths must not be so.
And Maulana Maududi was incorrect in his interpretation of the verse. It is quite clear God is speaking of Hell, not how to treat non-Muslims. zTruth 11/24/2008 11:03:49 AM
35: To those whose hearts when Allah is mentioned, are filled with fear, who show patient perseverance over their afflictions, keep up regular prayer, and spend (in charity) out of what We have bestowed upon them.
39: To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
So here, again, is another verse in the Quran, advocating fighting as they tried to expand Islam.
There is an article titled "Reflections of an American Muslim" by Dr. Shahid Athar. He is the former president of The Islamic Medical Association of North America and is the Clinical Associate Professor of Internal Medicine and Endocrinology, Indiana University School of Medicine Indianapolis, Indiana.
He runs a website called Islam for Today for "the theologically motivated Western converts to Islam". This article was found there:
"Reflections of an American Muslim"
"...LYING EVER JUSTIFIED?
There are no absolute justifications in Islam and the Prophet has asked us to tell truth even under the harshest circumstances of oppression. However, one may choose not to tell the truth when:
a. He is under oppression and there is danger of losing his life if he told the truth. Shaykh Saadi narrates a story, "A cruel king ordered an innocent man present in his court to be killed because of his lack of manners. Hearing this, the villager started to curse the king in his native language. The king asked the prime minister, who understood that man's language, to tell him what that man was saying The wise minister, instead of telling the truth, told the king this man is sorry for his conduct, praising his greatness and asking for his mercy The king was affected and he spared the life of that innocent man." Shaykh Saadi calls this a "lie with wisdom."
b. To promote mutual relationship between spouse, i.e., if wife asks you, "Am I beautiful?" or "Do you love me?" there is nothing wrong with saying "Yes," even if this is not the case.
c. While making peace between two quarreling parties, instead of igniting them against each other, i.e., "He said such and such bad thing about you," just say,"He says such and such good thing about you." Tradition: He is not a liar who tries to bring peace between two people by trying to tell the truth only as described in Surah al-Anbiya (21:62).
d. To make unbelievers realize the truth (21:62-65) When Prophet Abraham broke all the idols except the biggest one, the unbelievers entered the temple. Abraham hid and put his ax in the hand of the chief idol. They asked, "Who broke our gods?" He said, "Ask the chief idol, he has the ax." They said, "Don't you know he can't speak or do anything?" Abraham said, "That's what I have been telling you, so worship God, rather than these stones who cannot harm or profit you."
So actually, in my review about when it is OK to lie in Islam, there are really four exceptions, rather than the three, I had originally mentioned.
As I said before you telling me the hadiths about lying are not authentic, isn't what matters. I, and others, would need to see the Islamic leaders in America, more specifically, the Figh Council of North America issue a statement that denounces these as false hadiths.
This Islamic religious council for North America for some reason prefers to keep most of their fatwas secret. Serving on the executive board is, none other, than Jamal Badawi, the Muslim Brotherhood leader and close compatriot of terror supporter Yusef Qaradawi. Badawi, as you recall, is the man the Islamic Society of Tulsa invited to be their Quran expert in public.
According to this council, they trace their roots back to the MSA:
"The Fiqh Council of North America traces its origins back to the Religious Affairs Committee of the then Muslim Students Association of the United States and Canada in the early 1960s. This Religious Affairs Committee evolved into the Fiqh Committee of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) a
Today, I read:
"Professors at Egypt's al-Azhar University, Sunni Islam's most prestigious institution, say they oppose the enrollment of Christian students in order to preserve what they call the Islamic identity of the oldest theological university in the world.
Hussein Eweida, chairman of al-Azhar's Teachers Staff Club said the professors would hold a meeting with local and foreign scholars and present their resolutions to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, according to Dubai-based TV network al-Arabiya..."
Your Imama is from this university.
And in another report:
Cairo - A clash between Muslims, Christians and the police in the Egyptian capital of Cairo late Sunday resulted in injuries and multiple arrests of members of both groups, eyewitnesses and authorities said.
Hundreds of Muslims gathered after evening prayers in a Cairo neighbourhood to protest that Christians in the area had gathered to pray in a parish hall. Violence broke out between the group and police then intervened, eyewitnesses said.
Security sources said eight people were injured, while eyewitnesses spoke of dozens hurt.
...In Egypt, difficulties receiving state authorization to build a new church have caused many Christians to instead meet in parish halls or other venues.
39: To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-"
"Against whom war is made" and "because they are wronged" means fighting in self defense and against oppression, not "expanding Islam."
As for Dr. Shahid Athar and Hussein Eweida, they are wrong.
I understand that me telling you these Hadiths are not authentic doesn't matter to you. That is why I quoted the Quran.
"secret fatwas" is an oxymoron. If a fatwa is secret, how could anyone know about it? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a fatwa?
The MSA is a broad organization. I myself was a member of the Student MSA in high school. It's hardly threatening.
From Al Jazeera:
Ten people have been injured in clashes between Muslims and Coptic Christians in a village south of Cairo, Lina al-Ghadban, Al Jazeera's correspondent, reports.
The violence was triggered by a dispute over construction of a church in Behma, about 60km from the Egyptian capital.
Egyptian security sources said the reason for the confrontation was disagreement over the expansion of a church on a piece of land disputed by the custodians of the church and those of an adjacent mosque.
Al Jazeera said the clashes led to the burning of three houses in the village.
Christians comprise up to 10 per cent of Egypt's roughly 75 million people, with the remainder being primarily Sunni Muslim.
Relations between Muslims and minority Coptic Christians in Egypt are generally peaceful despite sporadic violence.
However, restrictions on building churches have been one of the main grievances of the Coptic Christian community.
Official account
A spokesman for Egypt's interior ministry confirmed that around 500 Muslims had gathered after Friday prayers, and that the entrances to three homes had been set on fire.
He said three people were hurt in the commotion but declined to characterize it as a clash.
One security source said Christians in Behma were expanding a house that was used informally for prayer, although others said the Christians were constructing a new church from scratch.
The sources could not immediately say whether the Christians had obtained proper building permits.
Church rumours
Security sources said rumours that the Christians did not have a permit for church construction, had sparked anger among Muslims.
This turned to violence after prayers when about 300 Muslims clashed with a group of about 200 Christians.
The two sides fought each other with sticks and threw bricks and firebombs, the sources said, and between 10 and 20 houses and shops were set on fire, including several shops that sold wood and construction materials.
Police intervened to stop the clashes, arresting 17 people from both faiths and sealing off the village, they said.
"You have obdurately and impudently persisted in your ideas of ignorance and trusted in your deities instead of Allah, though they possess no power at all and you have repudiated the Divine Messenger. Now you will meet the same end as has been the doom of those like you before. You have only harmed yourselves by rejecting Our Prophet and by persecuting the best element of your own community; now your false deities shall not be able to save you from the wrath of God"
I'm not sure why you added another report about the injustices that are waged against Christians in Egypt. These reports just show Egypt is not the example I asked for where Islam is practiced the way it is presented to us in America. It highlights how hard it is for Christians to get permits to build a church or add on to it or to practice their religion freely and openly. It highlights the pitfalls of declaring any religion the state religion - which is the ultimate goal of Islamic rule short of the world being under a caliphate.
Islamic rule is in the Quran:
[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day; That is best, and most suitable for final determination."
There is not one Islamic country I have found that matches the Islam we are presented in America. NOT ONE. This is a major obstacle that Muslims cannot overcome with words alone. We need to see action taken by American Islamic leaders who call out these countries for their abuses to others. We need to see declarations made and on-going efforts that seeks the end to these abuses. Most of all we need to see these leaders state that Islamic rule is being abused in these countries. The more specific the better. The lack of this action is clearly harming your efforts in America.
You told me all the Muslims or Islamic websites I referenced have Islam wrong, this include the works of highly regarded Islamic scholars and hadiths.
Oklahomans can only go by what Islamic scholars your mosque has used as their Islamic authorities. So it is not surprising your mosque is under the watchful eye of the FBI based on recorded public statements made by one of IST's spokeswomen who complained about it.
I though you said you would write USC/MSA and Guidedways to tell them of their so-called errors and I told you I would publish your letter. Have you done this? In fact, you hedged on it by saying you could not present yourself as an expert.
If you don't "get it" why Americans have serious problems with conflicting information about Islam, I don't know what else to tell you. For you or any Muslim to expect us to believe just your words and a few choice verses in the Quran is ludicrous. Your problem doesn't come from non-Muslims but from other Muslims in America, Islamic scholars here and around the world and Islamic countries where Islam rules according to the Quran.
Can you name just a few where one religion is fighting against another in riots where Islam in not involved? I confess I am unaware of any so enlighten me.
"No one should limit his/her sources of information."
Then why do you not practice what you preach?
"Islam is a religion, not a nation or an army."
Islam is a complete way of life and will seek to impose Sharia Law when it is the majority. It is written in the Quran.
"In Islam, there is no separation between the secular and the sacred. The law is suffused with religion," says David Powers, a professor of Islamic law and history at Cornell University.
Five major schools of sharia developed after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and during the Middle Ages--four in the Sunni tradition and one in the Shiite tradition. A school consists of a guild, or group of scholars, that developed specific interpretations of Islamic law; over the centuries, its precedents became legally binding. Muslims in different geographical regions favored different sharia schools, a practice that continues to this day.
What are the five schools?
Middle Eastern countries of the former Ottoman Empire favor Hanafi school doctrine, while North African countries prefer Maliki doctrine; Indonesia and Malaysia favor Shafi'i doctrine; Saudi Arabia adheres to Hanbali doctrine; and Iran follows the Shiite Jaafari school.
How do the rules of each school differ?
They are broadly similar, because they are derived from the same sacred sources, experts say. However, some schools take a more literal approach to the texts; others allow for looser interpretations. And there are also important differences between Sunni and Shiite sharia. For example, Shiites recognize a practice called muta, or temporary marriage; Sunnis do not. And Shiite inheritance laws differ from Sunni practices.
"Islam is not about Muslims taking over the world."
Islamism is about Muslims taking over the world or a region or a country so they can establish Sharia and eventually create a caliphate.
And from another recent article about Egypt:
"...Copts (Christians) complain of an antiquated law, inherited from when Egypt was under Ottoman rule, that obliges them to secure presidential permission before building a church or expanding an existing church..." AFP
Peace, love and freedom for everyone under Quranic Islamic law? I think not.
You still can't provide me one country.
Of course, violence can not be blamed on Christianity. I have many Christian friends, and I know Christianity teaches peace. But there has been violence in Christian countries, and even America, which as we know has no official religion. Clearly, violence is independent of religion.
[3:113-115]
"Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right."
[5:69]
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an) those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians? any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness?on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[29:46]
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say 'We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).'"
That is Quranic law. Any thing else isn't.
I have already provided you one country.
The verses you quotes are not Quranic law and you know it.
The country you provided, Egypt, does not match the Islam we are presented in America, so no you didn't provide me a country that would fit that criteria:
11/26/08 Cairo: One thousand Christians were today trapped inside the Coptic Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary in West Ain Shams,Cairo, after more than twenty thousand Muslims attacked them with stones and butane gas cylinders. The Church's priest Father Antonious said that the situation is extremely dangerous.
The Muslim mob that attacked the church blocked both sides of the street and encircled the church building, broke its doors and demolished its entire first floor. The mob were chanting Jihad verses as well as slogans saying "we will demolish the church" and "We sacrifice our blood and souls, we sacrifice ourselves for you, Islam", while the entrapped Christians chanted "Lord have mercy".
The incident started on the occasion of the inauguration of the Church today, when the Muslims hastily established a Mosque in the early hours of this morning, by taking over the first floor of a newly-built building facing the Church and started praying there.
There are modern day examples of religious conflicts, too, if that's what you're asking.
In Northern Ireland, peace has recently been established in the form of a ceasefire and independence between Catholics and Protestants.
In South Africa, hundreds of accused witches are killed each year.
In Sri Lanka, hundreds of thousands of Buddhists and Hindus have been killed in an attempt for Hindu independence.
In Tibet, Buddhists are being brutally suppressed.
As for the verses I quoted, of course they are Quranic law. They are rules to Muslims from the Quran, particularly 29:46. If that isn't Quranic law, what is it?
As for the news article, I could not find it on Al-Jazeera, BBC, NPR, NYT, CNN, or a number of Egyptian News websites. I did find it on "aina dot org", which quoted a website called "voiceofthecopts dot org". According to this source, this event happened not on the 26th of November, 2008, but on the 9th of August, 2004.
Of course, this does not change the fact that this event happened. But it does tell us that this happened four years ago. No doubt what those people did was wrong and totally against the Quran (see verses above). But Egyptians have come much farther today. Not far, but much farther.
If you are still not satisfied with Egypt, look to Mauritania, or Western Sahara. Both are Islamic countries and vastly Muslim.
The attack on the church happened on November 23rd which last Sunday. There are two videos of the attack, as well. I'm not sure if the number involved was 20,000 based on the videos I saw but it could be the videos were taken when they felt safer and didn't capture to full extent of the attack.
It was also reported on AsiaNews in an article titled "Thousands of Muslims attack Coptic church in Cairo:
"...It is the latest of many acts of violence against Christians. The Copts are the main religious minority living in Egypt, and represent 15% of the population, out of a total of 80 million inhabitants. Over the last 30 years, it is estimated that about 4,000 Christians have been killed or injured in attacks. In 2008, there have been dozens of events similar to the one that happened to the community in the suburb of Cairo.
Interviewed by AsiaNews, Fr. Milad Sidky Zakhary, director of the Catholic Institute of religious studies in Cairo, explains: "The problem is that legal authorization is not given easily to Christians to build churches. It often happens that communities are groups are forced to meet in homes or private buildings in order to fulfill the Sunday precept. If anyone discovers them, they do not report it to the authorities, but directly attack the faithful."
I don't think Islamic dominated news agencies would report on it. Islam is the official religion in Egypt so I suspect they would not call attention to this issue which would show Muslims in a bad light. It doesn't surprise me it's not on CNN.
Other headlines on this attack: EGYPT: THOUSANDS PROTEST, VANDALIZE CHURCH, Egypt's 'Pope' Bans Worship Service After Sectarian Clashes, Video Shows Muslims Storming Church in Egypt
I think the date on the Voice of the Copts is messed up as it shows the correct date right under the date of 2004 that you mentioned.
I see now the date at which it happened. But there are questionable claims. You say there were 20,000. voiceofthecopts says 10,000. The same video on Youtube (which is very unclear, you can't tell what's happening at all) says 3,000, and quotes a source called ava-kyrillos, which is about an Egyptian 'Pope' and was last updated three years ago. Another source says 8000 tops. AsiaNews shows a picture of a monk, which was actually taken in May this year (see NYT). And why was this event not mentioned in BBC, NPR, or NY Times? Surely a riot of such size would gain some attention from these immense news sources. I have doubts on what percent of Cairo was really there, and what really took place.
But if what you say is true, and 10,000 (I'll use voiceofthecopts, for now) Muslims really attacked the church, then this indeed is a crime. One which I would not expect in Egypt, but a crime nonetheless.
Also, you have underlined parts "where I believe Proud Tulsa Muslims is being deceptive". I can assure you I have given you my answers as I believe them to be true.
For example, you underlined "These verses were revealed after the Battle of Uhud" and "Muslims do everything for the sake of God".
Unless you know better than I when these verses were revealed, you have little reason to accuse me of being deceptive without proof. If you have doubts, look it up.
And Muslims do do everything in the name of God. We make doas (prayers, kind of) before a meal, as well as before we go to bed. There are many other doas, including doas before leaving and entering the house, or before driving a car. I fail to see how saying so is an act of deception.
You also underlined "the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a LAND-OWNERSHIP dispute. It has nothing to do with religion". Again, this is not deception, it is the truth. That is how it is taught in school, and research on the conflict shows the parties to be not "Muslims" and "Jews", but "Arabs" and "Israelis".
zTruth, if you doubted my word, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. You wouldn't believe a word I say, and this would all be a waste of time.
zTruth, I ask you to be a little more respectful. Please don't accuse me of lying or bring up my personal life. I have done neither to you, and I expect the same in return.
I also said to get these questioned answered is difficult, for some reason, which does not reflect well about Islam or Muslims.
When this is brought up, we are told it is because of dictators who abuse others. But I usually found that the constitution and or laws generally only favor Islam and Sharia law which is responsible for the harsh treatment of non-Muslims and Muslims, if they step out of the rigid bounds of strict Islam.
Nor have I seen American Muslim leaders stand up and issue declarations and so on to call attention to how mistreated Muslims are in the Middle East based on these horrible dictators. Why are they so silent? Don't they know these Islamic countries present Islam in a bad light to the world? Yet, they do nothing for their brothers and sisters and expect us to believe their words here in the U.S. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Believe it or not, my research, is to find the proof that Islam is truly a religion of peace for all BUT this has proven to be impossible because of the facts I find. I don't want to be unfair to your religion nor do I want to be told falsehoods. I just want the truth.
Everything I've said about you is information you provided, except your sex which I did make an assumption. I also made it clear that it was just an assumption and that I could be wrong. What difference does it make, anyway? You said you were a freshman studying calculus. Not many women study calculus. You said you had gone to Union and was a member of the MSA there. Based on what information you provided about yourself, it is easy to assume you are a young person and possible a male. You said you have relatives in Egypt and from what I gathered by your statements your parents were from there. You said your parents went to school with Christians and that Christan's can go to universities in Egypt. So based on your own statement it was reasonable to conclude your parents grew up in Egypt.
Why are you blaming me for referring to what you said?
On nearly every issue that might reflect unfavorably about Islam or the Islamic Society of Tulsa, you have deflected the issue, claimed no knowledge abou it or said the Muslims and/or their work I referenced were wrong, or you don't respond, at all.
You could be deceptive to protect Islam but I also wonder if you are naive or innocent. Hence the title. I'm still trying to figure that out.
You said everything you do is for the name of God and asked me how can that be deceptive? How simply you packaged a whole array of issues.
How can your mosque, which does everything in the name of God, present to us Muslim Brotherhood leaders, who have approved of martyrdom, as a source of Islamic authority?
o-Recently, 138 Muslim clerics from all over the world wrote a letter to the Pope. In the letter these clerics sought as a starting point for future dialogue the recognition of Islam's premise that there is no God but God. It's almost like these Muslim scholars are asking Christians to denounce that Jesus was the son of God in this letter. Some have said this letter was a call to Islam. What are your views?
*I know little of this letter, but you must remember that Muslims believe that we worship the same God as Christians. We merely have different ideas on who Jesus was. Asking to recognize that there is "no God but God" sounds more like a common ground establishment to me.
o-Muslims believe state and religion are under the obedience of Allah through the teachings of Islam. So are economic and social transactions, as well as educational and political systems all part of the teachings of Islam. How difficult is it for you to live in America where man-made laws may contradict Islamic teachings?
*Not difficult at all. I practice my religion, others practice their religion, and we can all obey the law. It is no different for Christians, Jews, etc. That's what's so great about this country.
o-How is this discussed and taught at your mosque?
*It isn't, at least not that I know of.
o-Are politics discussed there?
*Nope, just religion.
o-Don't Arabs control 99% of the land in the Middle East?
*Not sure of the exact percentage, but I wouldn't be surprised.
o-Does the state of Israel have the right to exist at all?
*This is a more difficult question. It depends on what exactly you define as the "state of Israel". I believe we can come together to establish a country where Arabs and Israelis can live together side by side. I don't think it's right to split the country into two.
o-There are several verses in the Quran which confirms existence of the land for Israel. Here is one verse:
10.93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best...
Can you see why the denial of Israel's right to exist is insulting and hurtful to Christians and Jews whose scripture evolve around Israel since before Christ?
*Again, Israel is a land for all the Abrahamic faiths. I believe Israel to include the entire region of modern-day Israel and Palestine. Many Christians and even Jews disagree with the decision to partition historical Israel into modern-day Israel and Palestine.
o-Why is Palestine not mentioned at all in the Quran?
(note: I don't believe it came into existence until after Israel was dominated by another empire - perhaps sometime after the Roman Empire or during the Islamic Ottoman Empire.)
*The region of "Palestine", or historical Israel, has undergone many different names, such as "Arabistan, Canaan, Greater Israel, Greater Syria, the Holy Land, Iudaea Province, Israel, "Israel HaShlema", Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Land of Israel, Levant, Retenu (Ancient Egyptian), Southern Syria, and Syria Palestina" (Wikipedia, "Palestine"). The name "Palestine" itself is actually Roman.
All of these names refer to the same region, historical Israel.
o-Why is Jerusalem not mentioned at all in the Quran?
*Jerusalem is mentioned in the Quran, simply not by name. For example, [7:161] reads:
And (remember) when it was said to them: "Dwell in this town and eat therefrom wherever you wish, and say, '(O Allâh) forgive our sins'; and enter the gate prostrate (bowing with humility). We shall forgive you your wrong-doings. We shall increase (the reward) for the good-doers."
Here, "town" refers to Jerusalem. God is talking about the story of Moses.
o-Do you agree the temples in Israel, which have been excavated and well documented existed? I believe a mosque was built over the 2nd Jewish temple built, right?
*I'm sure there have been temples in Israel, same as there have been churches and mosques. I do not know of their individual histories.
o-What hard evidence can you provide me that Palestine existed before these ruins of the Jewish temples? I've been looking for sources but can't find even one. Well-documented proof is needed.
*Again, Palestine refers to the region of historical Israel. The land has been there as long as any other land.
o-The following chapters in the Quran give clear instruction about fighting and dying for Allah. How is this taught at your mosque?
Chapter 4.74: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
4.95: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.
*I believe I have given my answer to this earlier in our discussion. Fighting is allowed for self-defense and against oppression. If you happen to die doing so, God promises them to be rewarded. Many of our soldiers died in WWII when fighting against Hitler's suppression of the Jews. They will be rewarded for it.
o-How would you describe Hezbollah? Hamas?
*
o-Do both organizations seek the total destruction of the state of Israel? (note: the destruction of Israel is in Hamas' charter)
*
o-Your prophet claimed to be the author of the Bible yet he seems to preach a strong dislike of Christian and Jews. It is stated in the Quran that the biblical books were distorted. Can you tell me exactly where they were distorted?
*I don't think Prophet Muhammad claimed to have written the Bible. After all, he was an illiterate man. Nor did he preach a dislike against Christians or Jews. In the early days of Islam, many Muslims fled persecution and found refuge in Abyssinia, ruled by a Christian king, as instructed by Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad knew him to be a just ruler.
o-Every word in the Quran is the exact work of Allah. correct? That would include the verses that say it is blasphemy to consider Jesus the son of God. Please explain.
*Yes, every word in the Quran is the exact word of God. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. We believe he was a prophet of God like Moses or Joseph or Muhammad, and taught to worship one God.
o-Describe combative jihad?
*This is a "struggle" (jihad means to struggle) in self defense or against oppression.
o-What conditions allow this type of jihad?
*If your life is at stake (self-defense) or another is being unjustly suppressed (ex, Jews during the Holocaust).
o-Do you believe in the Gospel of Jesus? (review this will them briefly). Then ask why the Gospel of Jesus is forbidden from being taught in Islamic countries. Review Islamic countries here.
*By Gospel you mean the Bible? Some of it I believe, other parts I don't. Everyone is free to study the Bible.
o-Does the Quran itself precludes Muslims from accepting secular concepts of individual freedom, material prosperity, and personal happiness outside of Islam?
*No, though a Muslim should never do anything immoral.
o-Review the document used by CAIR, in our public schools (when they can do it) about Islam and its blending with Christianity.
This document states the gospel of Jesus is part of Islam (slide 11). Yet it is forbidden to be heard by Muslims in Islamic countries. Please explain this discrepancy.
*Again, if by "gospel" you mean Bible, then some of it we believe and some we don't.
o-Where in the Quran is the Gospel of Jesus referred? The Hymn of David?
*The Gospel is referred to as "Injeel" and appears 44 times in the Quran. The Torah is mentioned 66 times.
o-Can the Quran be interpreted or does every verse stand?
*Please elaborate.
o-If your answer to the above was yes then the "tax of inferiority" verse (9.29) is a requirement of those who are not Muslims?
*I think you are referring to the jizya. This was a tax on non-Muslims living in the Islamic caliphate. It was 2.5% of the wealth, paid annually. Women, children, the poor, and the elderly were exempt. In return, they did not have to fight in the army and were promised protection during war.
o-This tax is being demanded of the Christians in Iraq . Is this part of the teachings of the Quran?
*No. It is only applied to non Muslims living in the Islamic caliphate.
o-Are you enjoined to act according to the Quran in its entirety?
*Yes.
o-Verse 2.256 states, Let there be no compulsion in religion. This is a verse also used to tell us Islam is a religion of peace. Why then do the laws, constitution or practices of Islamic countries not allow a Muslim to have basic religious freedom?
*What should be done isn't always what is done. Muslims have little control of the actions of their dictators.
o-Why is Islam not practiced in any Islamic country the way it is portrayed in America?
*Islam is practiced by many Muslims properly in Islamic countries. Not all, but many.
o-Who is the highest Islamic religious authority in the United State?
*I have no idea.
o-Whose fatwas (Islamic religious ruling) do you follow?
*No one's.
o-What are infidels?
*According to the dictionary:
–noun
1. Religion.
a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, esp. Christianity.
b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, esp. a Muslim.
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3. (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.
–adjective
4. not accepting a particular faith, esp. Christianity or Islam; heathen.
5. without religious faith.
6. due to or manifesting unbelief: infidel ideas.
7. rejecting the Christian religion while accepting no other; not believing in the Bible or any Christian divine revelation.
o-What is Islamic jurisprudence?
*You mean rules commanded in the Quran? An example of which would be forbidding "riba", or interest? Well there are rules in the Quran that tell us what is right and what is not. At the end of the day, it's our choice, and we will be held responsible for that choice.
o-Does Allah command that you spread Islam?
*God commands we spread the MESSAGE of Islam. It is one of our tasks to tell you about Islam and what it teaches. We cannot force you to be Muslim. After all, sincerity is key in conversion.
o-When Muslims speak to Christians and Jews, they often quote verses out the Quran to them. Can you understand this is insulting to them since the Quran chastises them for being on the wrong side? Why don't you simple keep your verses to yourself out of respect for these religions?
*I do not know of any Muslims who quote the Quran when speaking to Christians and Jews, except if they are discussing religion and Islam in particular. Most Muslims talk about what the rest of community is talking about. Students talk about school and academics, Athletes talk about favorite players and yesterday's game. So on and so forth.
Sahih Muslim/Hadith Book 032, Number 6303: ..."Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)".
Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857: Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba: "That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar".
Sahih al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle"? Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?; The Prophet said, Yes; Muhammad bin Maslama said, Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). ;The Prophet said, "You may say it"
*You already have my answer to this.
o-Does the Quran state Islam the only true religion? Is it superior to all other religions? Isn't this how it is taught?
*Yes, Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion, though we hold Christianity and Judaism in high respect as these are the other Abrahamic faiths. However, Muslims believe all men (and women) are equal.
o-Why are non-Muslims not allowed in Mecca?
*This is a good question. Many quote a verse from the Quran [9:28] as the reason. Also, restricting access to Mecca and Medina is intended to provide a place of peace and refuge for Muslims and preserve the sanctity of the holy cities. Millions of Muslims visit the cities each year, and additional tourist traffic would simply add to the congestion and detract from the spirituality of the pilgrimage visit.
o-Is blasphemy a capital offense according to the Quran?
*Yes.
o-Could an argument be made Islam, a whole system of living and governing, is counter to the American constitution of separation of state and religion?
*It could be made, but it would not hold true. Muslims believe everyone will be held responsible for his own actions, which is what the Constitution is based on.
How would you define an Islamist?
*Well, according to you, "Islamism is about Muslims taking over the world or a region or a country so they can establish Sharia and eventually create a caliphate."
o-What is a caliphate?
*A nation of "any of the former Muslim rulers of Baghdad (until 1258) and of the Ottoman Empire (from 1571 until 1924)." (Dictionary, "caliph")
o-Some experts believe Islamists are waging a global fight against free peoples (Hindu, Buddhists, Christians, Jews) for a global caliphate. What are your thoughts?
*I believe this is wrong. I don't know any Islamists personally, so I can't tell you what their thinking is.
o-The evidence presented in the Holy Land Foundation Trial demonstrates our government's long-standing awareness of the Muslim Brotherhood and its various goals within America. Were you aware of their presence here?
*No.
o-There are a number of national Islamic organizations in the U.S. started by the Muslim Brotherhood which seeks to create a global Islamic state. Do you belong to any of them? Do you know anyone who does?
*No.
o-Do you believe you have free will to choose what religion you practice?
*Yes.
*Theoretically, yes and yes. In practice, no and yes. Personally, I believe a Muslim who changes his religion was never really a Muslim in the first place. As for building churches, it should be allowed, no matter what. And it is, though it is often difficult to do so.
o-What kind of education is taught in Islamic countries?
*Varies from country to country. I have never lived in one, so I don't know the specifics. But generally, they teach math, science, foreign language, history, etc, etc.
o-How does a country become an Islamic state?
*The country makes Islam the state religion.
o-How many Islamic states are there in the world?
*44
o-What type of Islam follows the so-called strict form that gives rise to violence? Is it traditional, or formal, or fundamental, or orthodox, or conservative, or strict, literal, or pure, or true or primitive or authentic or is it simply the basic tenants of Islam? I'd like to know because each one of these types have been used to describe the so-called "bad" Islam.
*Again, there is no "bad" Islam. Such "forms" of "Islam" are not Islam at all.
o-When Muslims are asked about the troubling parts of Islam or what is in the Quran or about activities with global Islamic movements, they tend to cry they are the victims or we are Islamophobic. Why the diversionary tactic?
*Please elaborate.
o-Muslims believe Christians are in error about Jesus and the Trinity, correct?"
5.73: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God".
*Yes, we believe Christians are in error to say Jesus was the son of God.
o-Why do you think so many believe Islam is a religion of violence?
*For some, it is remainders of the Crusades. For others, it is due to misconceptions and generalizations that have existed since the Crusades but have sprung up fresh after 9/11.
o-Describe what is considered oppression.
*"the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner." (Dictionary, "oppression")
o-Jihad in the path of God – which consists of battling [Arabic, qital] against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it – is the summit of Islam. Do you agree with this statement?
*Disagree. The "summit" of Islam is for Muslims to worship God. Jihad means to struggle. Militaristic jihad is restricted to self-defense and fighting against oppression and injustice.
o-How would you describe Hezbollah? Hamas?
*Violent. I do not know of either's religious teachings.
o-Do both organizations seek the total destruction of the state of Israel? (note: the destruction of Israel is in Hamas' charter)
*Probably. You say your intentions are to find proof that Islam is a religion of peace.
Reading your categories, I get a different picture of your intentions. Again, you accuse me of being deceptive or naive. I repeat, I know much more about Islam than you do (I am a Muslim, after all), and I am being honest in my responses. If you think I am lying, you can go and have this discussion with someone you trust.
Reading your categories, I get a different picture of your intentions.
Again, you accuse me of being deceptive or naive. I repeat, I know much more about Islam than you do (I am a Muslim, after all), and I am being honest in my responses. If you think I am lying, you can go and have this discussion with someone you trust.
I am cautious about your honesty. Muslims can lie in four instances, according to t. You tried to dispel this as not a part of Islam but your rebuttal was very weak. The former president of the Islamic Medical Association of North America wrote an article about lying which was right in-line with what is written in the Quran and Hadiths. There is a big problem here when an Islamic leader in America wrote about this as a part of Islam. And, I haven't read where any Islamic leader denounced these hadiths as false, which is another big problem for Muslims. You tell me they are all wrong, but this isn't enough. I need more proof.
You and I are discussing issues about Islam that tend to give it a bad name. I present my concerns and you respond. I try to back up these concerns by using other Muslim's actions or words, or hadith or verses from the Quran. There are times, Proud Muslim, when I think you have been evasive or don't fully answer my questions but maybe you are just concentrating on other issues.
I don't follow your logic that we can't have a discussion about Islam unless I trust you. Trust is earned over time and your answers will either earn my trust or not.
Ultimately, it will be up to others to decide about both of our honesty, if anyone is reading this.
The last two countries you gave me as examples where Islam is practiced the way we are told about it in America have big problems:
Mauritania: The 1991 Constitution defines the country as an Islamic republic and recognizes Islam as the religion of its citizens and the state. The Government prohibits the printing and distribution of non-Islamic religious materials and the proselytizing of Muslims. The Government continued to restrict Protestant groups from meeting in members' homes until they received official recognition.
The country's first truly democratic government was inaugurated in April 2007 but Ould Cheikh Abdallahi, Mauritania's first democratically elected president, was ousted in the Aug. 6 coup.
Western Sahara: Due to continuing Moroccan administrative control of the territory of Western Sahara, the laws and restrictions regarding religious organizations and religious freedom are the same as those in the Kingdom of Morocco. The Constitution of Morocco provides for the freedom to practice one's religion. Islam is the official state religion. The Government places certain restrictions on non-Islamic religious materials and proselytizing.
A 2002 law restricting media freedom states that expression deemed critical of "Islam, the institution of the monarchy, or territorial integrity" is not permitted and may be punishable by imprisonment.
Source: International Religious Freedom Report 2008
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
None of the countries you provided me have shown me that Islam is the religion of peace that Muslim want us so badly to believe. Islam is the state religion in these countries and Islamic law is what is being followed, for the most part. Yet they have strive and turmoil, lack religious freedom and restrict non-Muslims. None of these Islamic countries speaks well for your religion.
I can't find one country that practices Islam the way we are presented it in America. As I've told you, I am searching for the prove that Islam is what you and other Muslims here tell us and I can't find it.
Another big deal for me: American Islamic leaders do nothing to call attention to the world that these countries are abusing Islam. They should be leading the charge.
In the debate, Muslim Brotherhood leader and unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terror funding trial, Jamal Badawi, had the gall to say that all 51 Islamic states have deviated from Islam. It is in video 8 of the 13 at around the 4.05 minute mark. He said it real fast but he said it.
Now, are we to believe his words over reality?
zTruth, I could swear to God that I'm giving you my answers as I believe them to be true, and I do, but even that would not be enough for you. What's the point of having a discussion with you if you're going to accuse me of lying every step of the way?
Throughout our discussion, I have never accused you of lying. While you might have been dishonest, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and respected your word as sincere. Is it too much to ask the same in return?
I have already quoted both the Quran and Hadith showing that lying is not allowed. The Hadith you quote contradicts the Quran. If a Muslim believes in the Quran, then he is not going to believe any Hadith that contradicts it.
Here are the verses and Hadith:
"...Lawful to you are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exceptions). But shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false, be true in faith to God..." Surah Hajj (22), Verses 30,31
Hadiths 6306 -6309, Bukhari (they're pretty much the same, just worded a little different)
6309: 'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is obligatory for you to tell the truth, for truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise, and the man who continues to speak the truth and endeavours to tell the truth is eventually recorded as truthful with Allah, and beware of telling of a lie for telling of a lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the person who keeps telling lies and endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar with Allah.
As for Islamic countries, I think you will find that many Muslims living in these countries are peaceful and properly practicing Islam. The individual laws of their country may be Islamic or they may be not. They have little control of that. No Islamic country's laws are completely Islamic or completely unIslamic, contradictory to what was claimed by Badawi. If you want to know which are Islamic and which are not, look in the Quran. I have already quoted a few verses from the Quran discussing the treatment of Christians and Jews in Muslim countries. You claimed that these were not Islamic law and failed to explain why. Obviously, if it is a command written in the Quran, it is Islamic law.
[3:113-115]
"Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right."
[5:69]
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an) those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians? any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness?on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[29:46]
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say 'We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).'"
Personally, I think you need to study what Islamic leaders say and do concerning Islam and how they may contribute to Islam getting such a bad rap. This is a major problem for Muslims.
I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but I am cautious. For one thing, you haven't proven that lying under certain circumstances in Islam is false. I need proof. You can't just simply quote a verse or two from the Quran and expect this to solve the problem, esp. when other Islamic leaders write that lying is OK under the circumstances outlined above.
I am curious, how does it make you feel to know Jamal Badawi is a Muslim Brotherhood leader and was chosen by your mosque to represent them as their Quranic expert?
What are the implications of their choice?
Thanks for the link to statements made by other Islamic leaders. I'll spend some time reviewing it and researching to see if they contradict other statements they might have made at other times.
The statement made by Muslim Brotherhood's Yusef Qaradawi included the following:
"..."I have been asked several questions on TV programs and on public lectures about the martyr operations outside the Palestinian territories, and I always answer that I do agree with those who do not allow such martyr operations to be carried out outside the Palestinian territories.
"Instead we should concentrate on facing the occupying enemy directly. It is not permissible, as far as Islam is concerned, to shift confrontation outside the Palestinian territories. This is backed by the Qur'anic verse that reads: "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not, aggressors," the renowned Muslim scholar concluded."
Here he is again stating martyr operations against Israel is OK.
His martyrdom statements have caused him to be banned from the U.S.. However, his statement was used by the Islamic Society of Tulsa following 9/11 two years after he was banned.
You really didn't answer my questions about Jamal Badawi in my last comment. Read the two questions again.
There are some "Islamic leaders" who openly support these acts of terror. But the majority openly denounce it. Have a look at this website, which lists a number of statements denouncing acts of terror from other "Islamic leaders".
unc dot edu/~kurzman/terror.htm
The voices are there, but they are hard to hear. I agree with you that as Muslims we need to make that voice louder. Especially American Muslims, since we have the freedom of speech.
I am sorry my Quran verses regarding lying are not enough. The Quran is my number one resource, before any Hadith or "Islamic leader".
Again, I feel the debate never should have happened. Rather, it should have been a common ground establishment to make Islam more understood, rather than making it a rival. I don't know exactly what Badawi teaches, so I don't know if he made the situation worse or not.
Yusef Qaradawi is strongly mistaken. Martyrdom is not about killing innocent people until you are killed. Martyrdom is about unintentionally dying while pursuing some noble cause, such as MLK's death while pursuing equal rights for African Americans. Martyrdom while fighting for your right to practice Islam is what is promised to be rewarded with Paradise, not attacks on innocents.
As for your two questions. For the first question, I have been doing some quick studying on the beliefs of the Muslim Brotherhood. Some of their views I agree with. Some I don't, and some I think are, for the lack of better word, pure baloney. If the IST simply had to have that debate, I think they could have found someone who better represents more of their views, as much as I disagree with some of them. Their implications of this choice are not necessarily bad intentions, but poor planning. They must have had poor planning to think the debate was a good idea, anyway.
I'm not following you here. Can you please explain this to me.
I also have a post on my blog today titled The Muslim Brotherhood in America revisited. Can you review this for me and let me know what you think.
Thanks.
1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
Haqqani makes an interesting argument, but it has way too many assumptions and generalizations, and provides too few exact examples. A weak argument.
What is the Islamic definition of Infidel?
Can you give me a few examples of the assumptions and generalizations you believe Haqqani made about the Muslim Brotherhood.
I reviewed the first five names on the "Islamic Statement Against Terrorism" paper and you provided me.
To me, their words against terrorism are meaningless and here is why:
Mustafa Mashhur (1921-2002), General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood issued a fatwa in 1996 that non-Muslims should pay a poll tax. MB supports Hamas who support the destruction of Israel. Fatwas by MB leaders have approved of martyrdom operations.
MB has not formally stated Christians are equal citizens.
The MB’s attitude toward other minorities reflects a similar approach. When Alexandria’s Administrative Court issued a ruling on April 4, 2006 instructing the Interior Ministry to allow a citizen’s identity card to state that the holder was a Baha’i, the Brotherhood reacted with outrage. In the May 3, 2006 parliamentary debate on the ruling, MB deputies said that the Baha’is were apostates who should be killed. Quoting a hadith attributed to the Prophet Mohammed to support their position, they declared that they would draft a law making Baha’ism a crime and branding the Baha’is apostates.
Source: The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood After the 2005 Elections
-----
"...Qazi Hussain Ahmed has earlier made flattering comments about Osama bin Laden, and his party, Jamaat-e-Islami, also has hailed al-Qaeda members as heroes.
The party also has allegedly encouraged its members to shield al-Qaeda members who are fleeing US troops in Afghanistan. Because of this, both Belgium and the Netherlands blocked his entry as late as May of this year..."
Source: Bin Laden backer on his way to Oslo.
Hussain Ahmad was imprisoned several times and has been under house arrest in Pakistan for instigating riots in which people were killed. Hussain Ahmad was banned in 2004 from entering over 25 European countries for reasons of National Security and in 2007 banned from entering Egypt.(Wiki)
-----
Muti Rahman Nizami, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh. I couldn't find much about him.
-----
Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas): Seeks the destruction of Israel. Hamas is a U.S. desinated terrorist organization.
-----
Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia: Sits on the Figh Council of Europe. Presiding over the council is Muslim Brotherhood Yusef Qaradawi, who has been banned from the U.S., for his fatwas approving of martyrdom. The council believes Sharia Law is superior to civil law.
Haqqani makes a number of doubtable statements. One is "The MSA did a remarkable thing from the point of the view of the Muslim Brotherhood: they got funding for a massive translation project of all the major texts of radical Islam, Qutb's books, Maududi's books, Hassan al-Banna's books and articles of others belonging to the network."
I can't speak for other MSA organizations, but the one I attended did not get funding for texts of "radical Islam", and I highly doubt that any other MSA did. We sold falafel, kebabs, and other Middle Eastern foods at school events, cleaned up the mosque, and held a graduation celebration. I suspect that many other MSA groups do much the same.
And "instead of modernizing the Muslim world, we have to Islamize the modern world. That was the agenda." However, he mentioned before the objectives of the Muslim Brotherhood, and none of them resembled this "agenda".
Also, "First was that most of the leading figures in the Muslim community ended up being people from the Muslim Brotherhood or people influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood. They had the money, they had the resources, they had the connections. Consider a small town in Auburn, Alabama that needs a little mosque. Who is going to pay for the mosque? This kind of help came from the Muslim Brotherhood." A generalization in itself.
As well as "Second, the mosques and organizations all ended up, or most of them ended up under Muslim Brotherhood control." No examples were given to justify this generalization.
He also said "the Muslim agenda ended up being defined by the Muslim Brotherhood, and this was a highly political agenda". Another unjustified generalization.
Next, "the marginalization of traditional Islam within the Muslim community of the United States, the kind of people who want to say their prayers but get on with the business of life, who want to have a relationship with God, but do not want to think of it as a political agenda." How does he prove this "marginalization"? No statistics? How can one even measure that?
"if CNN is looking for a spokesman for the Muslims, they are going to go to any of the organizations associated with the Brotherhood to provide speakers." Maybe true, but no evidence was provided.
Finally, "the new converts were more likely to be influenced by radical Islam than by traditional Islam". Another generalization that cannot be justified or measured and is probably false.
But hey, if you want to believe the other guy's wrong without spreading lies about him, then I'm cool with that.
Therefore, you do see the problem you all have, right?
Qaradawi, the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, has issued a number of fatwas against Israel that approve of martyrdom which you say are wrong.
Fine. Why haven't Islamic leaders in America issued declarations that state Qaradawi's fatwas and all other fatwas by other Islamic leaders in this regard are wrong! They state they are against terrorism which you say isn't the same as being a martyr. So much more clarification is needed from American Islamic leaders about these fatwas. And even then, how can we believe them because of the lying is OK in Islam issue.
So we also need to see Islamic leaders issue declarations and fatwas that any hadiths that approve of lying is wrong. Just a quote or two from the Quran won't do.
Again, Qaradawi is misunderstanding the concept of martyrdom, and misunderstanding what should be done about the Israel and Palestinian conflict. For the last time, this is a land-ownership issue, not a religious one.
It is not the job of "Islamic leaders" to say what should be done about this issue.
Again, the Quran is every Muslim's number one source on religion. As I answered in one of your questions, Muslims believe every word of the Quran to be the word of God. Which carries more weight, the word of God Almighty, or the word of a man? I even quoted a number of Hadiths that forbid lying. Which carries more weight, one Hadith or four Hadiths? I don't care, then, if every "Islamic leader" gives a fatwa saying it is okay to lie. God Almighty says it's not, the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said it's not, and that's good enough for me. I'm sorry if it's not good enough for you, but if you can't accept the word of God over the word of man, then there's little I can do to change your mind.
BTW, since you read the Quran only in Arabic, wouldn't you be more comfortable to refer to God as Allah?
What are you talking about when you said: "It is not the job of "Islamic leaders" to say what should be done about this issue"?
What an odd response because I was talking about Qaradawi who had issued a number of fatwas against Israel that approve of martyrdom.
Why haven't Islamic leaders in America issued declarations or fatwas that state Qaradawi's fatwas and all other martyrdom fatwas issued by other Islamic leaders are wrong!
These American leaders state they are against terrorism yet you said this isn't the same as being a martyr. So more clarification is needed from American Islamic leaders about these fatwas.
And you said this is a job for diplomats?
Did I miss something here?
So if we conclude you are right, then there are major problems within the Muslim community with so many high-ranking Islamic leaders misrepresenting Islam.
What does that say?
Seriously, you all really need to do something about these Islamic scholars who are giving Islam such a bad name.
For example, every animal came from water, is different than water makes up the majority of the body, as PM put it.
024.045
YUSUFALI: And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
PICKTHAL:Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR: And Allah has created from water every living creature: so of them is that which walks upon its belly, and of them is that which walks upon two feet, and of them is that which walks upon four; Allah creates what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.
Planets orbit around the sun in the following two verses:
051.007
YUSUFALI: By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,
PICKTHAL: By the heaven full of paths,
SHAKIR: I swear by the heaven full of ways.
086.011
YUSUFALI: By the Firmament which returns (in its round),
PICKTHAL: By the heaven which giveth the returning rain,
SHAKIR:I swear by the raingiving heavens,
I do not read this to mean planets rotate around the sun, at all.
Oh, well.
You will find that a fertilized human egg is 95% water. Water makes up 70-85% of the cytoplasm of your cells, and as adults, we are 2/3 water. Created from water? I think yes.
The other verse, 51:7, does indeed mean that planets revolve around the sun. What else would "paths" in the "sky" mean? These are the orbits of the planets as they circle the sun.
I'm going to have to stick with the Islamic leaders your mosque has chosen to present to Oklahomans.
If you want even more scholars, there's another Wikipedia list, complete with short biographies, of several modern Islamic scholars at "Contemporary Islamic philosophy".
It's a pity you can't name one or two for me.
This did happen in Tulsa at 41st and Memorial, right? The would-be jihadist was stopped by this brave trooper and there is no story?
I've got to be missing something here. Help.
As a citizen of Oklahoma, who has been studying Islamism in America going on 3 years now, I speak out when I think we are getting mixed signals.
Maybe the man is a nut case or maybe he is not. Either way, the citizens of Tulsa deserve to know.
This incident appears to have been an attempted jihadist attack by a Muslim who was intent on killing people who was praying to Allah for help in carrying out "his mission" and the Tulsa World didn't cover it?
Good God Almighty.
TAKABBUR (PRIDE)
Allah says:
Rasulullah said:
"He who has a grain of pride in his heart will not enter Jannat."
Just a thought! No harm intended.
Thanks for asking, though.
Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.”
Sura 18:4-5 “Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, “God hath begotten a son”: No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!”
According to Muslims, each and ever word in the Quran in the word of Allah.
Christians are celebrating this beautiful time of the year in honor of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.
What will you be doing on Jesus's birthday, Proud Muslim? The Quran claims he is a prophet but do you all even recognize his birthday?
[3:113-115]
"Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right."
[5:69]
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an) those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians? any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness?on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[29:46]
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say 'We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).'"
While we do not celebrate the birthdays of the prophets (not to mention, no one knows exactly when any of their birthdays were), we do celebrate the messages of God that they delivered.
We also show respect to all the prophets by saying "peace and blessings be upon him" after their names. Example, Moses, peace and blessings be upon him.
If a Christian fellow says merry Christmas to you, what should you say back to him?
Answer: Happy holidays! The term holiday is now used to refer to any vacation.
So according to Badawi, Muslims are encouraged NOT to acknowledge the words "Merry Christmas", to a Christian, if I read his statement right.
google: Dr. Jamal Badawi, Famous Da'iyah and Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research
I'm perplexed, though about something else. Mawlid an-Nabi means The Birth of the Prophet in Arabic
Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the primary scholar of the Muslim Brotherhood movement, and other scholars have approved the observance of Mawlid. Jamal Badawi stated it is not a religious requirement, though.
"Actually, celebrating the Prophet's birthday means celebrating the birth of Islam..."
-- Shaykh Yusuf Al-Qardawi
For 2009 the celebration for the Prophet Mohammad birthday is March 9th.
also google: On The Prophet’s Birthday: Lessons for the Ummah
So some Muslims do observe this birthday.
As for Al-Qardawi's statement, I must disagree with it. "Islam" is submission to God, so the concept goes much farther back than Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. It goes back to Prophet Adam, peace and blessings be upon him, the first man created.
I do realize that some Muslims celebrate the birthday of Muhammad (didn't know it was March 9th, but does anyone know for sure?), but this celebration was discouraged by the Prophet Muhammad himself, so this is wrong
The reason I ask, is because you sometimes speak sbout Islam, like when you said Muslims don't celebrate the birthdays of prophets without qualiflying how young and inexperienced you really are.
Come to find out many Muslims do celebrate the birth of Prophet Mohammad.
You said the concept of Islam goes way back to Adam, so in essence are you are saying the only true religion is Islam?
As a Muslim, I believe the "only true religion" is Islam, since "Islam" is submission to God. But as I quoted above, Muslims also respect Jews and Christians and believe they too will go to Heaven if they are righteous. Of course, it is God's decision who will go where.
Can anyone name one Islamic country where Muslims treat Christians and Jews with respect?
No matter how much we are told this in America, if it doesn't match up with reality in Islamic countries, esp. where Islam was born, Saudi Arabia - there's a big problem.
Do you think Israel has a right to land and to be a country with its own borders?
The seven times you stated to me this is a mere land ownership problem really is an attempt to just deny the significance of religious writings that state Israel has a right to land.
"Israel" as mentioned in the Quran, and probably the Torah and Bible, too, does not refer to modern Israel. "Israel" refers to historical Israel. Historical Israel makes up both modern Palestine and modern Israel.
Historical Israel has always existed, since the beginning of time. Modern Israel, as a nation, is fairly new. This is why religious texts simply say that Israel exists, not "has a right to land". Religious/historical Israel IS the land, and therefore, exists. Only the nation of modern Israel would need a "right to land".
Does the state of modern Israel have a right to exist? Of course, same as any other nation. But it cannot exist by taking land owned by others.
The best solution to this land dispute between Zionist and Arab is by uniting modern Palestine with modern Israel into a nation where all the Abrahamic faiths can coexist. Partition has never worked and never will work.
I think the international community was trying to restore historic, Biblical Israel.
I believe religious text does state Israel has a right to land but I will have to double check this to be sure and find the verses.
I'm quite sure the Islamic Ottoman Empire did not own the land since they seized it during their reign. It was they who first started to refer to the area in question as Palestine in their written documents, as I understand it.
I agree if both could live together as one nation it would be best but the Arabs want total control with a promise to protect the Jewish people. It's just part of Islamic hedgemony to me which is so dangerous to individual freedom. Just look at any Islamic country.
Since the Jewish religion is the first religion, it is due some respect here and Israel should be allowed to exist on their own standing.
Islam claims to be the final religion - over both Christianity and Judaism. Most of the world has a big problem with that claim.
Tech Rubbish, I don't think you are familiar with the Gospel of Jesus. I do believe,though,a literal interpretation of any religious book can be problematic.
Listen, I was an agnostic and until I became a Christian, I had no idea what I had been missing in terms of strength, inner peace, love and security in knowing my salvation comes from Jesus. And the most profound thing for me is that I didn't seek Christianity out - it found me. Afterall, I had no idea. It didn't happen to me over night but over time and it came awkwardly and slowly. But being an agnostic I didn't denied the possibilities that God might exist.
If you are closed off completely about the existence of God, you will never experience what I am talking about.
But he is there if you are a least open. It takes a lot of little baby steps.
It's worth the walk.
By the same logic, half of the New World should be handed back to the Native Americans. Also, historic Israel wouldn't be given to Jews, it would be given to the nation or race that existed before them. Go back a couple centuries, and "Israel" belongs to the Semites (today, that would be Arabs and Jews). Go back even farther, and "Israel" belongs to a group of non-Semitic people, the Kuzi, who are probably closest related to the Greek.
Technically, if you go far back enough, you end up giving the entire earth to the human race.
I don't know about you, but that could get confusing.
So who lives where? Do we give the Americas back to the Native Americans? I think we can all agree we made a big mistake in driving them from their homes. But does that mean we give the land back? On one hand, we did take it from them. On the other, centuries have passed, and many others now consider this land home.
Perhaps it is too late to give the Native Americans their land back. It's not too late to stop ourselves from making the same mistake again. The Imperialistic age has passed (or at least, it was supposed to), and it's time that we accept the government of the nation we live in or change it, or move.
The Palestinians control/controlled historic Israel for years. It's their home now. If the Zionists want to live there, they can buy a plot of land and build a house there. If they don't like the government, they can do something to change it, such as offer a compromise, protest, or if they want to be violent, revolt (which is sometimes necessary. Take the American Revolution, for example). But taking the land, farms, and homes of others is not acceptable. Granted, it was acceptable a couple of centuries ago, during the Imperialistic era, but in today's standards, it is not. Nor, probably, will it ever be.
"I'm quite sure the Islamic Ottoman Empire did not own the land since they seized it during their reign. It was they who first started to refer to the area in question as Palestine in their written documents, as I understand it."
As I explained, the Ottoman Empire did not own the land before they conquered it, but neither did the nation before them, or the nation before that, and apparently, neither does the nation after the Ottoman Empire.
As I've already said, the name "Palestine" is Greek/Latin-based, coming from the word Palaestina, which refers to the Biblical people the Philistines, who were not Semitic.
Every country should allow people of all races and religions to live in their country, with a voice in the government. We should try to make the land of historic Israel such a country. Not by force, but by compromise, example, and support, just as it came in this wonderful country of ours.
I denounce terrorism.
Muslims do not recognize Jesus's birthday or that he is Christ the Lord so I must be missing something here by Proud Muslim's Merry Christmas greeting. No disrespect intended, PM, just confused.
For Christians, Christmas marks and honors the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
We believe he is divine and was resurrected after his crucifixion and the second person in the Trinity. All of which is strongly denounced in the Quran.
Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America, and a close associate of IST's Mujeeb Cheema (google: The North American Islamic Trust - see the about page) stated in 2006 on terror-supporter Yusef Qaradawi's Qatar-based Islamonline:
"...Some people claim that Christmas is now a secular holiday and it is very much an American national holiday rather than a religious holiday. But it is wrong to assume that because this holiday is national, it has ceased to be Christian. It is true that this holiday is very popular -- it is basically a religious holiday. Its very name and all its symbolism is Christian through and through.
Christians celebrate at Christmas what they believe to be the "day of the birth of God's Son" or what they call "God Incarnate". Thus it is not only a celebration of another religion, it is also a celebration that is based on a belief that is totally against the teachings of Islam. -- Muslims must be very careful in this matter. The greatest danger is for our next generation, who may slowly lose their Islamic faith in tawhid and may start believing in Jesus as "more than a prophet and servant of Allah". The argument that “Christmas is, after all, Prophet Jesus' birthday and so there is no harm in celebrating Christmas” is neither logical nor Islamic.
Why should Muslims celebrate Jesus' birthday? -- For us Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is the final Prophet and Messenger of Allah, not Jesus..."
google: Can Muslims Celebrate Christmas Islamonline.
You guys have to excuse z. We're having a discussion on whether or not Islam is the source of all evil (jk, z). She's been stalking me around the board lately, trying to catch me in the act of being evil. I don't mind. It's like having a conscience. ; )
Thanks for standing up for me though, BYD and I.M. Right. It's good Christians like you that make your religion so highly respected 'round the globe.
Merry Christmas, BYD!
Happy Hanukah, I.M. Right! (Right back at ya!) ; )
It's confusing to me to hear PM say Merry Christmas, which personally I find somewhat insulting, because the Quran is very, very clear about Jesus.
Jamal Badawi, is the Quranic expert the IST uses from time to time (i.e., debate and on their website) stated if a Christian says Merry Christmas to you, you should, as a Muslim, reply back, Happy Holidays. He also said, in response to a question, that singing Lord Jesus in school is a form of shirk which in Islam is a form of polytheism and is stricky forbidden.
Badawi is on the Figh Council of North America where Islamic fatwas are issued in America.
I never let PM's attempts to discredit me bother me in the least, I expect it.
Denver, if I ever write something that is inaccurate, please point it out my error, but telling me to knock it off appears to be really odd to me. Isn't this where we can write our personal views and opinions?
There have been Islamic religious leaders who have approved of martyrdom operations against the people of Israel in fatwas (religious rulings).
Do you denounce Islamic religious rulings that approve of martyrdom operations against the people of Israel?
Can you quote the specific fatwa?
Do you denounce ANY Islamic religious rulings that approve of martyrdom operations against the people of Israel?
google: Must Innocents Die? The Islamic Debate over Suicide Attacks for some background, if you must.
And from "Legitimate, Illegitimate Acts of Violence" in Newsweek, John Esposito, professor of religion, international affairs and Islamic studies at Georgetown University, wrote:
"...Sheikh Ahmad Yasin, the late religious leader and founder of Hamas, and Akram Sabri, the Mufti of Jerusalem, as well as many other Arab and Palestinian religious leaders, have argued that suicide bombing is necessary and justified when faced with Israel’s illegal occupation and overwhelming military power.
...Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, whom many regard as the most preeminent and influential religious authority in the Arab and Muslim world, condemned the 9/11 terrorist attacks and other acts of terrorism. -- he was also one of the first religious scholars to approve suicide bombings in Israel.
The debate, what some call the war of fatwas, among religious leaders, is reflected in Qaradawi’s harsh criticism in the Arab media of Shaykh Tantawi who condemned the suicide attack that killed 26 Israelis in December 2001:
"How can the head of Al-Azhar incriminate mujahedin (Islamic fighters) who fight against aggressors? How can he consider these aggressors as innocent civilians?...Has fighting colonisers become a criminal and terrorist act for some sheikhs? …I am astonished that some sheikhs deliver fatwas that betray the mujahedin, instead of supporting them and urging them to sacrifice and martyrdom."
Qaradawi also criticized Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah as-Sabil, the imam of the grand mosque in Mecca, for declaring that killing Israelis is not permissible. In an interview with Al-Jazeera, Qaradawi rejected the term "suicide operations,” maintaining that ‘martyrdom’ operations should not be attributed to suicide. Distinguishing between terrorism and "martyrdom," Qaradawi declared:
"The Palestinian who blows himself up is a person who is defending his homeland. When he attacks an occupier enemy, he is attacking a legitimate target. This is different from someone who leaves his country and goes to strike a target with which he has no dispute..”
You obviously have not read his on-going conversations with me over at "Religious fast turns to feast" which has been going on for over two months now.
Proud Muslim had said previously that terrorism and martyrdom are NOT the same thing, if I recall this correctly.
That's why I want it clarified.
I am merely asking Proud Muslims if he condemns these religion rulings.
To me, you comment doesn't fit in at all in this context.
Sorry, zTruth, but "ANY" is a little broad. Could you specify exactly what I'm denouncing/supporting?
Yes, I oppose such actions. As I told zTruth (though she still doesn't believe me), the Israel-Palestine conflict is a land dispute. Hence, fighting and attacking innocent civilians will not solve the dispute. Instead, it needs to be solved like any other land-related disagreement: with a judge, some diplomats, and an agreement.
What I think should be done is merge "Israel" with "Palestine" and turn the resulting country into a democracy where both sides will have a voice in the government.
I guess that's sort of destroying the State of Israel, but it's also destroying Palestine, so they're even.
In the Palestinians' point of view, they did have a homeland, and it's been split in two. They're not happy with giving up their homes because someone else wanted to live there.
Partition has never worked. Look at Pakistan and India. I can guarantee it won't work here either.
"To each his own" is a simple solution, but it's not the best. I think the best solution is a united, democratic nation.
I know drugs have resulted in a lot of deaths, but those were deaths by choice. Suicide, I guess.
We can let history repeat itself, and make the Palestinians move. Or we can learn something, and fix the problem. Yes, one of the Muslim countries could offer land to the Palestinians. But it won't stop the violence for a long time, and it means allowing a wrong to be done. I think if we put a little more effort into it, we can come up with a better way.
Like I.M. Right said, it's a small area with a lot of people. It was the same way before the declaration of Israel. That's why when Israel was established, people had to be pushed out to make room for the new comers. That's one of the problems. Do we let the Israelis stay, or do we kick them out? I think we might be able to get them to stay, or at least some of them. The question is, how? Who stays and who goes?
Here's what I think should be done. Give the original people their land back, be they Jews or Arabs, and have the Israelis buy their land. If they can't buy it in Palestine, then they can't buy it in Palestine. Also, set up a democratic government, so all people, no matter what faith, can have a voice in politics.
Actually "any" is not a broad term here - it is quite specific. For the third time, Proud Muslim, do you denounce ANY Islamic religious ruling that approves of martrydom operations (i.e., blowing one self up to kill others) against the people in Israel?
While we are on this subject, I read that a young Muslim college student, Ahmed Mohamed, who made videos on how to make explosive devices for these would-be martyrs, was sentenced to 15 very long and lonely years in the slammer yesterday.
I just wonder if he was influenced by any one of those Islamic religious rulings about martyrdom that I've asked you to condemn?
Blowing oneself up is suicide, and blowing up innocents is murder. Suicide will be punished with Hell fire, as will murder.
A martyr, as I told you before, is:
1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
Martyrs will be rewarded.
This is why it would help if you quoted the fatwa. You seem to consider "martyrdom" and "blowing one self up" to be one and the same, so I need to see what the fatwa actually says.
As for the story, it's quite interesting, because a while back, I read that a young Muslim college student, Hassan Askari, came to the aid of three Jews being beaten up by a gang, while everyone else ignored them, and received "a possible broken nose, a stitched lip, bruises and two black eyes". His actions allowed one of the Jews to call the police, and for the gang to be arrested. Askari was presented a bravery award for his actions. You can read the whole story at BBC's article "NYC hails Muslim 'Good Samaritan'".
I just wonder if he was influenced by Quran and Sunnah. Apparently so, since he said "I believe we are all members of one family, and my religion teaches me always to come to the aid of my fellow man in distress".
Back on the 18th, I gave you several names of of Islamic leaders who have approved of suicide bombers in order to kill Israelis. A simple google search would have provided you enough information about their fatwas. The originals are probably in Arabic.
There has been much written about these troubling fatwas so to act as if you are confused or need to see the actual fatwa is ridiculous. There is much written in Yusef Qaradawi's own words about his fatwas.
Your description of a martyr in your capacity as a young Muslim, contradicts a number of international Islamic leaders who have ruled to martyr oneself for the sake of the fight against Israel is acceptable and is NOT suicide. Some have ruled this acceptable against U.S. forces, as well.
I'm afraid, at this point, I really have no choice but to assume your non-answer is a refusal to denounce these fatwas. I don't know what else to do or say.
Additionally, this dance I believe you are doing is exactly why stating that you are against "terrorism" is not enough to make me feel warm and fuzzy.
Every Islamic leader in America needs to denounce any and all martyrdom fatwas. Just saying they are against terrorism is not specific enough.
Lastly, in the context of these fatwas, I brought up the Florida college student who was convicted for providing help to martyrs. So I am confused about the other story you brought up that had nothing to do with the specific discussion.
In every instance here, it is Islamic leaders and actions of other Muslims who are giving Islam a bad name not non-Muslims.
When I question you about this you play dumb.
I'll do your work for you this time, but don't expect me to do so again.
Faysal Mawlawi begins his argument with:
"Martyr operations are not suicide and should not be deemed as unjustifiable means of endangering one's life. Allah says in the Glorious Qura'n: (And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good) (Al-Baqarah 2: 195). The verse obviously indicates that failing to spend in Allah's Cause is like casting oneself into ruin. That is the reason behind the revelation of the noble verse."
and concludes with:
"I believe that those missions are a sacred duty carried out in form of self-defense and resisting aggression and injustice. So whoever is killed in such missions is a martyr, may Allah bless him with high esteem. I call on every Palestinian not to hesitate in carrying out such operations as long as they are the only way of making jihad and are made with an intention of sacrificing one's life for the Sake of one's religion and nation. I wish that other scholars who hesitate concerning such a matter to reconsider their views according to what I have said and what other scholars have said. May Allah guide us all to what is right."
I assume this is the kind of "martyrdom fatwa" you are referring to.
The problem with Mr. Mawlawi's argument, first, is his interpretation of verse 195 of Surah al-Baqara:
[Yusuf Ali]
2:195 - And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.
[Mohsin Khan]
2:195 - And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds,) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh), and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers).
[Shakir]
2:195 - And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.
[Pickthal]
2:195 - Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent.
Clearly, God is commanding us to not "cast by your own hands to ruin", "throw yourselves into destruction", "make your own hands contribute to destruction", or "cast yourselves into perdition with your own hands".
This means one of three things: not harming oneself figuratively (dooming oneself to Hell fire), not harming oneself literally (suicide, etc.), or both.
By comparing it to Surah Nisa, verse 29:
[Yusuf Ali]
4:29 - O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good-will: nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful.
[Mohsin Khan]
4:29 - O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allâh is Most Merciful to you.
[Shakir]
4:29 - O you who believe! do not devour your property among yourselves falsely, except that it be trading by your mutual consent; and do not kill your people; surely Allah is Merciful to you.
[Pickthal]
4:29 - O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.
it can be seen that the literal meaning, and therefore, the figurative meaning, is true.
So primarily by 4:29, but also by 2:195, killing oneself is forbidden.
Secondly is Mr. Mawlawi's concept of suicide and martyrdom. My stand on this has already been stated.
Therefore, I side with the scholars who Mr. Mawlawi says "hesitate" to consider such "missions" as an option.
You say "it is Islamic leaders and actions of other Muslims who are giving Islam a bad name not non-Muslims". However, I have mentioned several Islamic scholars and actions of other Muslims who show that Islam is all about worshiping God and doing good, much like Christianity or Judaism. zTruth 12/22/2008 8:31:55 AM
I'd like to get a list going. Just stating they are against terrorism isn't what I mean or that they say Islam is only about peace.
Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi's fatwa approving of martyrdom is no small matter. He is the deputy head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research of which terror-supporter Yusef Qaradawi is the president. From the U.S., Jamal Badawi (IST debate) and Sheikh Dr.Salah Soltan are members. Badawi and Soltan are also members of the Figh(Islamic jurisprudence) Council in North America. It appears most of their fatwas are not made public, with only two listed. Fatwas generally cover nearly every aspect of ones daily life.
The European Council for Fatwah and Research (ECFR) seeks to unify Europe's differing views of Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) - all part of plans to unify the world under Islamic rule decades down the road, if they are successfully.
Just recently, Badawi gave a presentation on "The impact of Muslim integration in North America" at their conference.
Qaradawi has issued martyrdom fatwas for over 20 years. Badawi has discussed martyrdom on Islamonline. Both these men have been used as a source of Islamic authority by the Islamic Society of Tulsa.
The World Assembly of Muslim Youth, which was shut down in the U.S.because of its role in funding terrorism, has promoted ECFR's mission on one or more of their websites.
You still did not condemn these fatwas outright.
I said I "side with the scholars who Mr. Mawlawi says "hesitate" to consider such "missions" as an option". In other words, I condemn Mr. Mawlawi's fatwa and all others supporting it. I thought it was pretty clear, but if this is what you want, here it is.
This is totally misleading. A world body, the UN, gave Israel their land back. No disrespect intended, PM, but just want some accuracy here.
There was no such thing as Palestine. PM even said so during the time the Bible and the Quran was written. It was never referred to once in either book while Israel and their land was referenced in both books. There are verses in the Bible and the Quran about this, if I recall this correctly.
But when the Islamic Ottoman Empire seized land from all around it began to refer to that region as Palestine in their official documents.
The world defeated this Islamic hegemony and restored the people of Israel to their rightful land. It was world leaders and the UN who gave Israel their land.
Come to think of it, didn't Muslims disrespect the earliest Jewish temples by building mosques on top of them in their attempt to become dominate? This is so disturbing but typical of the dominate nature of Islamic rule which is evidenced in every Islamic country.
An Islamic hegemony has been trying to regroup for decades, like with the Muslim Brotherhood, who some experts say is the grandfather of Al-Qaeda. MB is firmly implanted throughout the U.S. but the good news is the government is well aware of most of them and their sympathizers.
MB is firmly behind Hamas and its charter which seeks the destruction of Israel.
It is also very likely there are MB members who have worked they way into the very fiber of our country who have kept their true agenda hidden. It is up to Americans to become aware of these players who want to subvert our country whenever possible. The Muslim Brotherhood is not outlawed here in the U.S., but I think it should be. Maybe it will be someday - afterall, they seek Islamic rule and domination. Right now, they are really working hard to become mainstream moderate players but one can never forget their agenda and doctrine. They are actual ignoring their doctrine in order to win others over. But don't be fooled.
Remember, it was the Islamic Society of Tulsa who invited a Muslim Brotherhood leader to represent them at the debate as their Quranic expert. A fact they did not disclose to us Okies.
Tell you what. I'll wait three more days for a response. After that, you'll have to leave me a message that you want to continue.
I do have a lot I want to follow up with you, Proud Muslim but let me just say that it is surprising you don't know of any Islamic scholars who have issued fatwas that state martyrdom against Israel is wrong.
Wouldn't it be to you benefit and the Muslim community's benefit to be well-aware of these and stand publically behind them?
Seriously, I want to start a list.
What's surprising that I don't know of any specific scholar whose disagrees with the fatwa? I already said I don't keep up with individual scholars. Before this discussion, I didn't know of any specific scholar who agreed with the fatwa. I just knew they were out there.
Again, if you want a list of specific names, Mr. Mawlawi is the perfect guy to ask. If you ask him nicely, I'm sure he can provide you a list of his colleagues who disagree with his opinion, as mentioned in his fatwa.
I think it would be very helpful for the Muslim community in Tulsa and elsewhere to let Americans know they stand with the Islamic scholars who have issued fatwas against martyrdom. Without this their statements on terrorism is weak.
I'll report back if I can find these scholars.
Do you honestly think an Islamic scholar who supports martyrdom is going to answer an e-mail from an American who want to know who opposes his fatwa? Get real.
Today, I found an article about a recent fatwa against Israel a Saudi cleric issued last Sunday.
Professor Muhammad al-Atawneh of Ben-Gurion University said:
"Unlike Shi'ites, in the Sunni world there is no equivalent of a Pope," There is no clear definition of the role of the cleric and the obligation of Muslims to adhere to his fatwa."
He also pointed out that Palestinians were more influenced by Egyptian Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, presently based in Qatar and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, which has strong ties with Hamas..."
Interesting, huh?
We all did what we could to make our voices heard. For now, our thoughts and prayers for the innocent civilians of Palestine are all we can give.
I did a google search for Islamic scholars who denounce martyrdom and found very little but I'm will continue to look.
Did you write that one scholar who supports it?
I think it would be so helpful for the Muslims in America to have a website where Islamic clerics and scholars are recognized for their stance against martyrdom against Israel and/or U.S. forces. Like I said before a mere statement by any Islamic scholar or group against terrorism isn't sufficient.
BTW, where you at the pro-Hamas/Gaza protest yesterday?
These people were supporting the people in Gaza who were forced violently to be under the control of Hamas, right? Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel.
Why then didn't they protest against the brutal takeover of Gaza by Hamas who embeds itself among the civilians? It is Hamas who is the problem here not Israel.
The twisting of the facts is worrisome and makes no sense.
One could easily conclude these Muslim demonstrators appear to be pro-Hamas, a U.S. designated terrorist organization. This is certainly not positive for their Tulsa community image.
I was too busy to go to the demonstration, though I took a few minutes to drive by and give some moral support.
I think both Hamas and Israel are responsible. Hamas is wrong to hide among civilians, if this is true, and Israel is wrong to fire anyways.
I believe the protesters made it clear that they were against violence, not pro-Hamas.
Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the most popular. Maybe the demonstration isn't good for their image, but protesting against violence was the right thing to do. We've done what we can to make our voices heard. For now, our thoughts and prayers for the innocents are all we can give.
I agree that American Muslims should announce how they stand on this issue. I think most of us don't really pay attention to things like that. In daily life, such things have low priority.
Will Mr. Mawlawi respond? Well, if you don't email him, you'll never find out. I might email him too, for extra measure.
But if he doesn't respond, some quick research will name a few: Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy, Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Yousef Sanei, and Maulana Sufi Muhammad disagree with Mr. Mawlawi.
For me, the Quran verses and Hadiths against suicide are enough, but if you want scholars, Google will provide all the information you want.
I believe Professor al-Atawneh is correct in that statement. Shias give religious clergies more authority than Sunnis. (I do not identify myself as either. Just Muslim. On the matter of fatwas, I only ask for advice if it is not clearly stated in the Quran or Hadith.) I do not know about Palestinians' views specifically.
If it weren't for Hamas there would be no violence.
I'm afraid the protestors yesterday only pointed the finger at Israel, from what I've seen and heard.
Had Israel not made its homeland by forcing others out, there would be no violence. As I said before, Israel having a homeland is fine, but accomplishing that by force and violence, and by taking the land of others, is wrong.
INTERVIEW: SHAIKH MUHAMMAD TANTAWI
‘Wage jihad to defend the holy places and liberate lands’
Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the Shaikh of Al-Azhar, the highest ranking religious official in Egypt and World of Islam, called for Jihad against Israel ‘in defence of the holy places, the liberation of the occupied land, and the repulsion of the enemy.’ He stated that combating the oppression is incumbent upon the entire Islamic Ummah and not an obligation of the Palestinians alone. Shaikh Tantawi also declared that Islam requires that the leaders and people of the Arab and Islamic states support the Jihad of the Palestinian people who are fighting against the occupiers of their land.
google: Wage jihad to defend the holy places and liberate lands
Also:
"...Sheik of Al-Azhar, Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, the leading religious authority in the Sunni Muslim establishment in Egypt, joined in the debate, saying that "the suicide operations are of self-defense and a kind of martyrdom, as long as the intention behind them is to kill the enemy's soldiers, and not women or children
Sut Al-Ama (Egypt), April 26, 2001. [quoted in Al-Hayat (London-Beirut), April 27, 2001.]
Strike one.
From the BBC article:
"The Grand Sheikh of the al-Azhar mosque, Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, has condemned the suicide bombings against Israeli civilians."
Feel free to reconsider or continue.
So, either he changed his mind or he is, heaven forbid, lying to protect Islam.
In addition, and this is most disturbing, the Islamic Fiqh Academy which is affiliated with the Organization of Islamic Conferences (representing over 50 Isalmic countries) approved in January 2003:
3- The Islamic Fiqh Council asserts that jihad and martyr operations done to defend the Islamic creed, dignity, freedom and the sovereignty of states is not considered terrorism but a basic form of necessary defense for legitimate rights. Thus the oppressed peoples who are subjected to occupation have the right to seek their freedom via all means possible.
4-The Islamic Fiqh Council stresses that martyr operations are a form of jihad, and carrying out those operations is a legitimate right that has nothing to do with terrorism or suicide. Those operations become obligatory when they become the only way to stop the aggression of the enemy, defeat it, and grievously damage its power.
5-It is not allowed to use terms such as “jihad”, “terrorism”, and “violence”, which have become frequently used by today’s mass media as scientific terms, to mean other connotations beyond their basic well known meanings.
Once again, this was a major resolution by an international Islamic organization which does not speak well for your religion.
google: Martyr Operations or Terrorism Islamonline
or Martyr Operations Carried Out by the Palestinians Islamonline
What specifically are you talking about here?
I was referring to the forced displacement of Palestinians to make room for the arriving settlers. Do you want to go back to that issue, or continue on the suicide-bombing-debate-among-scholars issue? But that's a different story, and one we've already covered.
Qaradawi is co-founder and president of the International Association of Muslim Scholars and the European Council for Fatwa and Research, and Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council in Qatar.
The Islamic Figh Council is under the OIC and not part of Qaradawi's organizations. It is located in Saudi Arabia.
So this is a new council added to our discussions here.
The first name you gave me for an Islamic leader who disapproves of martyrdom is too questionable. So he has to be thrown out. I haven't had a chance yet to look at the other two names.
For crying out loud, PM do you NOT see how other major Islamic leaders and organizations are putting your religion in a very bad light? And there's no website out there to stand up to them from Islamic leaders who disagree? Good grief.
Why??? Wouldn't this show solidarity to the world against these barbaric martyrdom rulings?
Israel was given a place to call home by an international body after the Islamic Ottoman Empire seized the area and ruled over it for centuries reining Islam supreme over all other religions.
You haven't provided me anything to dispute this.
If you have something that is credible about this that would be great. I welcome it.
Hey, if you get a chance watch a special on Fox news tonight at 8 PM about the son of a major Hamas leader who found peace and love with Christianity. He lives in America now.
You have an open mind, right? Watch it and let me know what you think.
Do you think every Christian is a good person? There are many people who have committed crimes against humanity and still call themselves Christians. The same goes for any religion. Remember what Ghandi said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
There are Muslims who give Islam a bad image, and there are Muslims who give Islam a good image. If you want to know about Islam itself, you have to look in the Quran. I thought we already established this.
Could you explain your comment about Israel? I'm not following your logic.
Yes, I like to think I have an open mind, which is why I never watch Fox News. I get my news primarily from BBC and NPR. I might watch it, but if I do, it'll be while holding my nose.
I don't care for CNN, but I watch it from time to time. I also watch/read many different news sources, BBC, NPR, AlJazeera, the Muslim Brotherhood website and so on. I do it to get different perspectives.
Islam is being shown to the entire world in a bad light by the actions and religious rulings of many Islamic leaders and organizations.
Why don't you create a website where all Islamic leaders and organization who disapprove of martyrdom religious rulings can be shown to the world? Making statement against terrorism isn't enough because many Islamic leaders have ruled that martyrdom is not terrorism.
Are Muslims being shown in a bad light? I think we are, but only if you choose to look at it that way. There are Muslims who show themselves in a good light. You really have to study the religion itself to know which side better represents Islam.
I don't really have any experience in website creating/managing. I suppose after that, it would just be a matter of contacting people.
While some scholars have approved of suicide bombings, others have disapproved. But all are against terrorism.
Only if I choose to look at it this way? Come on. There are a good number of influential Islamic scholars who approve of martyrdom. It has nothing to do with looking at Islam from this angle - this is the angle they are presenting of your religion. This is what gives Islam its bad name. And the fact there are daily violent Islamic attacks taking place somewhere in the world based on these religious rulings.
PM said: "While some scholars have approved of suicide bombings, others have disapproved. But all are against terrorism."
The point here is - a number of Islamic scholars and Islamic organizations, including the Islamic Figh Council which is affiliated with the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), which represents over 50 Islamic countries, has ruled that martyrdom is NOT terrorism. The OIC has permanent observer status at the UN and even has an office there and one in Washington, DC. The OIC is the largest Islamic organization in the world, I believe. As such, I suspect it is positioning itself to be a leader of the Muslim Umma.
"The Islamic Fiqh Council in its fourteenth session, held in Duha (Qatar) January 2003 stresses that martyr operations are a form of jihad, and carrying out those operations is a legitimate right that has nothing to do with terrorism or suicide. Those operations become obligatory when they become the only way to stop the aggression of the enemy, defeat it, and grievously damage its power." Islamonline
Therefore, any statement by any Islamic scholar or cleric against terrorism is totally worthless unless it specifically addresses these martyrdom religious rulings, IMO.
As I said before, there are some very influential Muslim leaders who are hurting your religion. You and every other Muslim in America can talk until you are blue in the face that Islam is only a religion of peace but the fact is every day we see just the opposite.
Action always speaks far louder than mere words. The signs Oklahomans saw Muslims carry at the protests in Oklahoma the last few days only pointed the finger at Israel. To ignore the fact that the Gaza Strip was seized violently by Hamas in June of 2007 damages credibility. This takeover is what is causing the problem.
Israel is determined to stop the smuggling of rockets that Hamas sends into Israel. It is Hamas who lives among the civilians as they store these rockets in mosques. It is Hamas who holds the civilians of Gaza Strip hostage. It is Hamas who is culpable here.
Islamists, though, who only see things through a prism of anti-Israel hate and do not the truth.
It is quite pathetic how seriously dishonest these people are.
Also, there is no "leader of the Muslim Umma", except God.
As I said before, there are some very influential Muslim scholars who are correctly representing my religion, at least on a number of issues. Every Muslim in America and I can talk until we are blue in the face that Islam is a religion of peace and the fact is every day we see exactly that.
Action always speaks far louder than mere words. The signs Oklahomans saw Muslims carry at the protests in Oklahoma the last few days were clearly against violence. To ignore the fact that hundreds of innocent civilians die every day damages credibility. This war is what is causing the problem.
You say yourself that Hamas holds these civilians hostage. Usually, when a criminal is holding an innocent civilian hostage, you hold your fire. As a matter of fact, there is even someone, a hostage negotiator, whose job is to negotiate with the criminal to ensure the hostage is not hurt.
Zionists, though, only see things through a prism of "support-Israel-blindly" and often, though not always, hate Arabs and, in their generalization that all Arabs are Muslim and all Muslims are Arab, Muslims.
It is quite pathetic how seriously dishonest these people are.
Muslim Views on Suicide Bombing
Suicide bombings are justified...
[Country, Often, Sometimes, Rarely, Never, Don't Know]
Egypt, 4, 9, 40, 40, 8
Jordan, 7, 18, 29, 41, 5
Lebanon, 8, 24, 18, 48, 1
Turkey, 1, 2, 6, 83, 8
Indonesia, 3, 8, 13, 74, 3
Pakistan, 1, 4, 10, 81, 4
Nigeria, 11, 21, 12, 49, 6
Tanzania, 8, 4, 10, 74, 4
Opinions of Hamas
[Country, Unfavorable, Favorable]
Jordan, 37, 55
Egypt, 50, 42
Nigeria, 30, 32
Lebanon, 72, 25
Indonesia, 26, 23
Pakistan, 16, 18
Tanzania, 29, 16
Turkey, 65, 6
t appears your scholars are not as influential as you say they are. It also appears that Muslims as a majority are anti-Hamas and anti-suicide bombings.
Here is the overview, including a link to the full 73 page report:
pewglobal . org/reports/display . php?ReportID=262
It includes "Confidence in Osama bin Laden" (I was surprised. 58% in Nigeria(!), 37% in Indonesia, 34% in Pakistan, 19% in Jordan, 3% in Turkey, and 2% in Lebanon. Fortunately, according to the chart, in all the countries except Nigeria, confidence in Osama bin Laden has dropped considerably in the past 5 years and is still dropping. You can see the exact numbers for each year on the link).
It also includes "Women Should Have The Right To Decide If They Wear A Veil"
Country:Approve-Disapprove
Turkey: 95-4
Indonesia: 92-8
Lebanon: 85-14
Pakistan: 63-35
Tanzania: 60-40
Jordan: 59-39
Egypt: 55-39
Nigeria: 34-64
Also, "There Should be Restrictions on Men
and Women in the Same Workplace"
Country: Disagree-Agree
Jordan: 39-56
Egypt: 41-53
Pakistan: 49-49
Nigeria: 59-39
Lebanon: 67-29
Indonesia: 73-26
Tanzania: 76-24
Turkey: 84-11
"A Struggle Between Modernizers and Fundamentalists":
Country: See Struggle, (If you see a struggle, who do you identify with:) Modernizers, Fundamentalists, Don't Know
Turkey, 68, 40, 13, 14
Lebanon, 58, 48, 5, 5
Lebanon Sunni, 80, 65, 6, 8
Lebanon Shia, 37, 30, 4, 3
Tanzania, 56, 33, 20, 2
Indonesia, 48, 26, 16, 6
Pakistan, 46, 23, 20, 2
Nigeria, 38, 20, 17, 1
Egypt, 33, 17, 13, 3
Jordan, 21, 7, 14, 1
Also, Concerns of Extremism, Sunni-Shia Tensions, etc.
I think the conclusion can be made from the statistics that the majority of Muslims share the same ideals as many Americans. Go figure.
I do realize there are a lot of Muslim countries missing. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait... But I feel these few statistics shed some light, enough light to show that zTruth was wrong in her arguments.
I pray you're right, IzItRight. I would love to revolutionize the Middle East. Ambitious much?
Smedj said Hamas could be agreeable to a two-state solution? They can't even agree on one government solution for the Palestinians. Remember, they violently forced out the government in the Gaza Strip leaving these people with two governments. One led by Hamas in Gaza and the other by Fatah in the West Bank.
The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. It has not been amended.
PM, a good number of the demonstrations I saw across the country, Britain, and Canada were disturbing. Not one sign called-out Hamas as any part of the problem that I saw. But there was plenty who blamed Israel, calling them the real terrorists. And a good number of little kids were carrying these hateful sign. Not cool, at all. Your religion was definitely not presented in a good light at these protests. I saw anger and hate.
Peaceful, kind, loving people just don't act this way - ever. There is something festering in the hearts of many Muslims and it doesn't reflect well on Islam. It is almost like they are being fed a dose of hate daily. Some of the protests could have turned to mass violence and I did see a couple of isolated acts. They really exposed themselves for what they really are.
I also read that Razi Hashmi, the director of CAIR-OK, said and I quote: "America should take immediate steps to end Israel’s "illegal and immoral” offensive against the Gaza Strip Hamas rulers."
Hashmi just outed his organization's true agenda.
The Islamic Societies of Tulsa and Greater Oklahoma City and several others in Oklahoma have partnered with this organization, which is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America.
Hamas grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine.
These protests and actions just set you all way apart from most Americans and it further the divide even more, IMO.
It was a big eye opener for many.
On the statistics, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I think they show just how influential the scholars zTruth refers to are: not much. Clearly, the vast majority of Muslims believe suicide bombings are never or rarely justified, despite fatwas from Qaradawi and others.
It also shows that such scholars, if not most, make little difference in the average Muslim's life.
The numbers don't lie.
IzItRight, I don't think you've read zTruth's blogs on her website. I think you'll be a little more hesitant to make the same statements after doing so.
zTruth, you can see where I've posted the statistics on approval of Hamas. Most Muslims disapprove of them. If that's what you're trying to get at, the numbers are there.
As for the protests, the one I saw was clearly anti-violence, not pro-Hamas. Big difference.
I don't think the protests set us way apart from most Americans. According to a recent Gallup Poll, 44% of Americans believe Israel was justified in its actions. 34% of Americans believe Israel was unjustified in its actions. 22% had no opinion.
62% of Americans believe Hamas was unjustified in its actions. 17% of Americans believe Hamas was justified in its actions. 21% had no opinion.
Clearly, the majority of Americans are against violence, just like the Muslims at the protest.
It also said: "By and large, non-Muslims express somewhat less negative views of Muslims than vice
versa."
I am slightly encouraged that Muslim's view of suicide bombings is declining but I don't know how the question was worded which could make a big difference.
bombing and other forms of violence against
civilian targets are justified in order to defend
Islam from its enemies. Do you personally feel
that this kind of violence is often justified,
sometimes justified, rarely justified or never
justified?”
As you said, views of Muslims, and Jews, are decreasing in Europe. In Spain, 46% of the population view Jews negatively, and 52% view Muslims negatively. In the US, it was 7 and 23, respectively.
I didn't say this. Read my last post again.
Sharia is the law of the land in most all the Islamic countries. Sharia and fatwas are which control these poor people. Our only way to learn how Islam is really practiced is from these countries. We have to look at how all Islamic countries treat their citizens under Islamic law.
In 1990, 45 Muslim countries signed the Cairo Human Rights Declaration which basically rejected the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights set forth in response to the breakup of the last caliphate, the Ottoman Empire. And it doesn't guarantee total equality or religious freedom for all.
Islam seeks to dominate over others where it can. It does not consider itself equal to other religions but the final true religion.
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. Aal ‘Imraan 3:85
So no matter what the polls show, the citizens of these Islamic countries are under the control of Quranic law. They are powerless to change anything. They have to conform or be killed.
One of my main arguments has been Islamic leaders in America do nothing to call attention to their fellow Muslims plight - all the while they tell us a version of Islam that is NOT practiced in one Islamic country. It is a big dilemma for you all. Often we here it's the dictator's fault.
No, for the most part it is Islamic law.
Peace is possible if the tiny little country of Israel is respected by the Muslim world. This is not a land dispute but one where Islamic domination is sought.
It 's all part of the war of terror - which really is a war against Islamic domination.
Well, by their practice against minority religions - yes:
"Religious minorities reported difficulties opening, maintaining, and operating houses of worship. Police occasionally barred Christians from holding services in private apartments, and prosecutors have opened cases against Christians for holding unauthorized gatherings.
Police occasionally prevented Christians from handing out religious literature. Proselytizing is often considered socially unacceptable. Christians engaged in religious advocacy were occasionally beaten and insulted. In October 2007 police reportedly detained 3 of 14 American tourists in Igdir overnight for distributing Turkish translations of the Bible along with a compact disc on Christianity.
There were reports that local officials harassed some persons who converted from Islam to another religion when they sought to amend their cards. Some non-Muslims maintained that listing religious affiliation on the cards exposed them to discrimination and harassment.
On May 6, 2008, three men, one of them armed with a gun and wearing gloves, threatened the Kurtulus Church and its pastor Ihsan Ozbek in Ankara. The suspects fled in a car before police could be summoned. According to a church member, one of the assailants said they were going to get rid of the pastor. Other threats and incidents of attempted violence against Protestants continued to be documented.
On December 30, 2007, a murder attempt on the Muslim background Christian Pastor Ramazan Arkan, was prevented by police.
In December 2007 a 19-year-old assailant stabbed 65-year-old Italian priest Adiano Francini inside the St. Antoine Church in Izmir.
In November 2007 Syriac priest Edip Daniel Savci was kidnapped in Midyat and held for 3 days as his kidnappers demanded $438,000 (€300,000) in ransom.
In November 2007 security officials thwarted a planned attack on a pastor at St. Paul's Church in Antalya.
In October 2007 the Court of Appeals Penal Department Number 1 approved the 18 years and 10 months' prison sentence for the suspect in the 2006 murder of Catholic Priest Santoro in Trabzon.
Throughout 2007 there were more than 15 attempted attacks and death threats against Radio Sherma, a Christian radio station in Ankara.
On April 14 and 15, 2008, unidentified youths stoned the building of a Protestant congregation in the Derince district of Kocaeli two nights in a row, breaking most of the windows.
On January 25, 2008, there were reports that five youths stoned the Izmit branch of the Istanbul Protestant Church Foundation, causing material damage.
In November 2007 two intoxicated suspects were arrested for breaking windows of the Greek Orthodox Holy Trinity Church in Istanbul's Kadikoy District.
In September 2007 a public prosecutor in Diyarbakir opened a public court case demanding up to 3 years in prison for Oktay Bicici, who was detained for a week in June after having been accused of encouraging a "deranged" person to set the Diyarbakir Protestant church on fire.
On September 3, 2007, there was an arson attack on Istanbul Protestant Church Trust's Izmit Building.
On March 9, 2008, there were reports that life-threatening phone calls were made to members of the Protestant church in Gaziantep.
In February 2008 a 17-year-old was arrested and charged with threatening the leader of Agape Church in Samsun.
In February 2008 one of the attorneys representing the families of the Malatya victims filed a complaint with the Ankara public prosecutor's office regarding threats he had received and suspicions that his e-mail and telephone calls were being monitored and used to manipulate information to discredit him.
Source: U.S. State Dept, Religious Freedom Report for 2008.
In addition, it is well known Islamists are trying to make headway in Turkey which created a secular government following the fall of the Islamic Ottoman Empire whose capital was in Turkey. November 1, 1922 marks the date of the end 623 years of Ottoman rule.
Smejd said: "And as far as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict goes there are elements of religious fanaticism on both sides, including Christian Zionists in the US, but as I have said again and again the fundamentals of the conflict are over the continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and the denial of Palestinian self-determination." Evidence for this are found in the fact that Christian Palestinians have participated in some of the more violent chapters of the conflict, as members of the PFLP and Black September."
The Black Sept. Organization kidnapped and murdered eleven Israeli athletes and officials, and the murder of a German police officer, during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich, Germany. It ceased existence in 1973. So I'm not sure where you were going with this.
Smejd said: "Given all that, how can you claim that this conflict is not about the rights and plight of the Palestinians but about Islam's desired domination over Israel?"
The largest Islamic charity in the U.S., the Holy Land Foundation was shut down for funding Hamas. The 5 defendants were convicted on all counts. Around 300 people and organizations across America including CAIR, were named unindicted co-conspirators. CAIR, the North American Islamic Trust, the Islamic Society of North American and others were name for their association with the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas.
Let's review the Hamas charter:
Hamas' August 1988 Charter declared that all Palestine is Islamic trust land, can never be surrendered to non-Muslims and is an integral part of Muslim world.
From the Charter:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
Article 2:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgment, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.
Article 15:
"...It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis."
Proud Muslim keeps saying it is just a dispute over land and it is most certainly NOT.
All, the protest that we have seem in America and Canada show support for Hamas-controlled Gaza. Razi Hashmi, the director of CAIR-OK spoke of his support for Hamas in the newspaper. Virtually all of the Islamic societies in Oklahoma have partnered with CAIR.
As I said before the war on terror is a war against Islamic domination.
As I said before, zTruth has been watching too much "Pinky and the Brain".
"...It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis."
Well, there's your proof, zTruth. Only a terrorist could think this is a religious conflict and not a land dispute.
NewsOK 1/6/09: Group protests Gaza unrest at Oklahoma state Capitol
Your mosque has partnered with an organization that is the outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America.
"...The MCC statement also condemned Hamas for treating the Palestinian people as human-bait in a ploy to provoke Israel into launching an all-out attack on Gaza. In censuring Hamas, the MCC said, the Islamist group had deliberately put the civilian population of Gaza in danger as it played the role of Iran's agent provocateur in the region..."
Excellent! Too bad, Islamic leaders in Oklahoma and America didn't issue a similar statement.
Instead, we saw many signs at protests that said Israel is the real terrorist.
Or we read articles such as "Will Obama comply with demands from the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood coalition?"
The American Muslim Taskforce (AMT), a coalition of U.S. Muslim Brotherhood organizations has written a letter to President-elect Obama identifying themselves as “Muslim leadership” and alleging that the U.S. government has engaged in “COINTELPRO” campaigns against the U.S. Muslim and Arab communities, referring to a series of covert and often illegal projects conducted by the F.B.I. from 1956 to 1971 and targeting political organizations. The letter also demands a series of policy changes from the Obama administration.
...The AMT today is comprised of the most important U.S. Muslim Brotherhood organizations including the Muslim American Society (MAS). Council On American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Islamic Circle Of North America (ICNA), Islamic Society Of North America (ISNA), Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and the Muslim Student Association (MSA).
Sheikh Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti
Profession Director of the Islamic Center of South Plains, Lubbock, Texas
First and foremost, Muslim scholars must mobilize the Muslim masses to do whatever they can in order to stop the Israeli atrocities against the Gazan people. Those who can fight have to fight, and those who can only give their money must do so.
Scholars must also expose the Israeli and the American hypocrisy...
...Rallies and demonstrations are important means of political expression, and we should not underestimate the importance of such expressions. However, anyone who can move from expression to action in support the oppressed Gazan people, he or she has to do so.
Allah asks Muslim to use their own souls and their property in the defence of the oppressed: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who being weak are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men women and children whose cry is: Our Lord! rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Thee one who will protect; and raise for us from Thee one who will help!" (Holy Qu'ran 4:75)
For Muslims who have access to the battlefield, their duty is to join the resistance to defend the oppressed. For those who don't have access to the battlefield, their duty is to use all possible ways of lending support for the oppressed such as donation, the media, communication and first and foremost du'a'.
Of course, this Islamist movement won't happen overnight in America but rather in bits and pieces, chipping away at our laws over decades. For example, did you know there is a Texas Islamic Court? I'm telling you anytime any religious group gets to operate outside our laws, it is dangerous.
You may not see this as a problem and that's your call. But I have spent three solid years seriously researching this issue. I can also tell you I had hoped my research would have convinced me there was NO SUCH THREAT and I would have loved to have gone about my normal life. But that did not happen and, as a result, has changed my life.
Numerous federal court documents also support this threat.
Pitiful.
As you can see by the tone of zTruth's response, this is more of an argument over whether there's a Muslim conspiracy or not. Paranoid much?
Yes, what_was_is, some often mistake the USA as a Christian nation.
There is a conspiracy by the Muslim Brotherhood to take over our country, slowly over the decades to ome. This well-thought out plan has been exposed by the FBI in federal court documents in a number of trials. Numerous Islamic organizations were set up to advance their plans. Some of these organizations are still in existence today.
Just yesterday, it was learned that the FBI severed their ties with the Council of American Islamic Relations.
In a letter from the FBI field office in Oklahoma City a meeting with local Muslim groups had to be canceled due to local involvement by CAIR-OK.
FBI spokesman John Miller confirmed the letter's existence.
CAIR is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas infrastructure in America. They were named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terror funding trial. All defendants were found guilty for helping to send millions to Hamas, a U.S. designated terrorist group.
The Islamic Society of Tulsa and Greater Oklahoma City and other Islamic groups in Oklahoma have been very visible with their partnership with CAIR. Many are also tied to the Islamic Society of North America, also named an unindicted co-conspirator and the North American Islamic Trust, another unindicted co-conspirator.
The Islamic Society of Tulsa invited a Muslim Brotherhood leader, Jamal Badawi, to represent them in their "famous Christian/Muslim debate."
Badawi, is also an unindicted co-conspirator, and was actually named in the Muslim Brotherhood plans as their main da‘wah man to propagate Islam.
CAIR_OK Director, Razi Hashmi said on January 5, 2008: "America should take immediate steps to end Israel’s "illegal and immoral” offensive against the Gaza Strip Hamas rulers."
Paranoid? Not on your life.
"Proud Muslim needs to get a life. You can tell how wacked and crazy these religious nut cans are by the hundreds of times this guy has written on this article. Total nut jobs."
Ummm how about zTruth and all the comments she has written? Does that make her a nut case too??
Proud Muslim I think you have done a wonderful job discussing this in a polite manner. You have alot of knowledge and represent the rest of the true Muslims in a great way! Keep it up and you will go far Inshallah!
I think everyone has an opinion on what they think Islam is. zTruth, you have your opinion as well and you are entitled to that. I also admire the fact that you have done research for 3 years. You have alot of knowledge too. I just know that there are alot of bad people out there in the world. And there are alot of good people. The media also lies alot and you will hear more about the bad people and their doings rather then the good people and all the lovely deeds they have done.
I am a true Muslim and will always believe that Islam is a peaceful religion no matter what other people say. Governments, "religious" leaders, extremists can try all they want but they can't erase the true Islam. People can quote the Quran and take it out of context in the most negative way but you can also do the same thing with the Bible.
Bottom line, we are all humans. Humanity is worth something too. Why look for all the bad in articles when all it does is spark tempers and controversies?? This particular article was about a peaceful holiday that Muslims have a chance to celebrate after a month of fasting. And it got turned into a huge debate on how "evil Islam really is." That's seriously sad.
No I can't quote the Quran word for word. I can't name a bunch of leaders that do so much evil promoting of Islam either. I just know that we are all humans and should at least try and get along in what is a very short life.
I hope that everyone accepts my comments with grace but I know with experience that there are some haters out there who love to spark even more hate so if you wanna comment even after reading this be my guest. Good luck to ya and God bless!
CAIR-OK Director, Razi Hashmi, said on January 5, 2009, not January 5, 2008: "America should take immediate steps to end Israel’s "illegal and immoral” offensive against the Gaza Strip Hamas rulers."
Sorry
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
I personally hope you are not home schooling your young family members so they do not grow up to be as stupid as you.
google: FBI letter mentions CAIR-OK
Comments